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  #11  
Old 10-20-2022, 11:54 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

Baptism is necessary for the repentant, but forgiveness is by Gods grace alone. Acts 2:38 can unintentionally become a 3 step formula to receive Gods remission of sin, when instead obedience is simply the obvious response of the recipient of Gods grace. The sinner on the cross received no outward demonstration or seal of his faith, but God extended grace to him anyways. This does not negate obedience to the gospel found in the book of Acts and the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The work of God on our lives involves much more of God and less of ourselves then what we sometimes realize.
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  #12  
Old 10-21-2022, 01:28 AM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Baptism is necessary for the repentant, but forgiveness is by Gods grace alone.
So repentance and belief aren't required to receive forgiveness.

Quote:
Acts 2:38 can unintentionally become a 3 step formula to receive Gods remission of sin, when instead obedience is simply the obvious response of the recipient of Gods grace.
So repentance and belief are the response to being forgiven. You have God forgiving a person by grace, which results in that person becoming a believer who repents.

Quote:
The sinner on the cross received no outward demonstration or seal of his faith, but God extended grace to him anyways. This does not negate obedience to the gospel found in the book of Acts and the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
Which means the thief on the cross is not an example of how people get saved.

Quote:
The work of God on our lives involves much more of God and less of ourselves then what we sometimes realize.
The work of God causes us to believe, repent, be baptised, receive the Spirit, and continue steadfast in the original apostolic faith. It does not cause us to believe that alien sinners enter covenant with God apart from repentance and baptism.
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  #13  
Old 10-21-2022, 05:43 AM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So repentance and belief aren't required to receive forgiveness.



So repentance and belief are the response to being forgiven. You have God forgiving a person by grace, which results in that person becoming a believer who repents.



Which means the thief on the cross is not an example of how people get saved.



The work of God causes us to believe, repent, be baptized, receive the Spirit, and continue steadfast in the original apostolic faith. It does not cause us to believe that alien sinners enter covenant with God apart from repentance and baptism.
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  #14  
Old 10-21-2022, 07:55 AM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So repentance and belief aren't required to receive forgiveness
.


Quote:
So repentance and belief are the response to being forgiven. You have God forgiving a person by grace, which results in that person becoming a believer who repents.


Quote:
Which means the thief on the cross is not an example of how people get saved.
Quote:
The work of God causes us to believe, repent, be baptised, receive the Spirit, and continue steadfast in the original apostolic faith. It does not cause us to believe that alien sinners enter covenant with God apart from repentance and baptism.
“For the repentant” is in the very first sentence I wrote. We obviously have faith if we are repentant. What I was meaning is Gods free gift of forgiveness is to the repentant. Gods Forgiveness is not manipulated by a sinners prayer or any other physical observances. When we repent, God freely forgives, and obedience is a continued result of repentance. Therefore, we have the example of the thief on the cross being saved.

The thief was forgiven after (faith)repentance, and if he would of lived to tell it, he would have been baptized and filled like all the rest of Christ followers.
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  #15  
Old 10-21-2022, 03:50 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
.










“For the repentant” is in the very first sentence I wrote. We obviously have faith if we are repentant. What I was meaning is Gods free gift of forgiveness is to the repentant. Gods Forgiveness is not manipulated by a sinners prayer or any other physical observances. When we repent, God freely forgives, and obedience is a continued result of repentance.
So you don't agree with the following statement?
"When we are baptised in the name of Jesus, God freely forgives."

Quote:
Therefore, we have the example of the thief on the cross being saved.
Where does it say anything about the thief being saved? Where does it say anything about him repenting?

Quote:
The thief was forgiven after (faith)repentance, and if he would of lived to tell it, he would have been baptized and filled like all the rest of Christ followers.
Where does it say the thief was forgiven?

Don't you think you are making an awful lot of speculative assumptions, and then building doctrine on those assumptions?

The blood of Christ (that is to say, His death) is what secures forgiveness of sins. We contact the blood (that is to say, we are identified with His death) in baptism. Therefore, baptism is for (into) the remission (aphesis, "forgiveness") of sins.
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  #16  
Old 10-21-2022, 04:49 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So you don't agree with the following statement?
"When we are baptised in the name of Jesus, God freely forgives."

Can people be baptized that are insincere? God looks upon the heart and therefore repentance is discernible by God.


Quote:
Where does it say anything about the thief being saved? Where does it say anything about him repenting?
This day you’ll be with me in paradise. I guess Jesus told him that right before allowing him to enter eternal damnation? The thief showed godly sorrow that worketh repentance. If you don’t think he showed repentance, than I will not disagree, but I am persuaded that he did.


Quote:
Where does it say the thief was forgiven?
The atoning blood of Jesus is what saves. It is only by the blood of Jesus we receive forgiveness. The only way for him to spend eternity with Jesus is by receiving forgiveness.

Quote:
Don't you think you are making an awful lot of speculative assumptions, and then building doctrine on those assumptions?
Not at all. The only doctrine is built on the death burial and resurrection, and God will divide the wheat and tares.

Quote:
The blood of Christ (that is to say, His death) is what secures forgiveness of sins. We contact the blood (that is to say, we are identified with His death) in baptism. Therefore, baptism is for (into) the remission (aphesis, "forgiveness") of sins.
I am not sure on this, but I do agree that baptism is necessary obedience.
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  #17  
Old 10-21-2022, 08:48 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

Well, you offered no scriptural proof concerning the thief so I'll just move on from that.

A few remarks:

1. Christian baptism presumes sincere faith (Acts 8:36-37). So when we speak of baptism, we do not speak of some sham, nor infant "baptism", nor forced "baptisms", so called. Instead, we are speaking of a sincere believing response to the Gospel.

2. Repentance means a reversal of one's course. It means ceasing to be whatever you were and becoming a Christian. Or in the case of backsliders, ceasing to be a disobedient Christian and becoming an obedient Christian. Biblical repentance for sinners includes becoming a Christian, a disciple of Christ. One does not become a Christian apart from baptism into the name of Christ.

3. Many are non-apostolic, but instead are modern Protestant, baptistic, evangelical in regards to their doctrine of conversion. This modern heretical and unbiblical view holds "repentance" to be a specific moment in time in which a "decision" is made to "accept Jesus as Saviour" or to ask for forgiveness from God or to "begin following Christ" or some other variation on the same theme. It is almost ALWAYS identified with a prayer and a "trip to the altar". The Bible NEVER shows conversion in this manner.

This modern decisionism was practically invented by Charles Finney and quickly adopted by Methodists, some New Light Presbyterians, other "holiness" and "revival" movements, in the early 1800s. He taught that God uses "means" (tools, methods) in converting and saving sinners, especially during revivals. Revival preachers must use certain means or methods to bring the Gospel to sinners and see their conversion. One of these means which he invented was the "Anxious Seat". This method involved preaching a revival message, then inviting anyone who was "anxious about the condition of their soul" to come sit up front so the preacher and a few other saints or family members could pray for the person and plead with them to submit to Christ. This was adopted by Methodists who would set up a "Penitent Form" or "Mourner's Bench", a makeshift bench where those under conviction could come and pray to God for forgiveness while the preacher and saints prayed for them and exhorted them to put total faith in Christ to absolve them of their sins and sanctify them by removing the "root of sin and rebellion from their heart".

Later, Dwight Moody modified it and popularised it as "coming forward" and "accepting Jesus as your personal Saviour". Many modern Oneness Pentecostals have taken this same methodology and they call it "repentance", where people who want to be saved "come forward" to "the altar" (modern version of the Mourner's Bench) to pray to God for forgiveness and "make a decision for Christ".

What's funny is Finney, the inventor of the whole thing, admits in his sermon on Means To Be Used In Revivals that the Anxious Seat and the Mourner's Bench are modern methods that in Bible days was served by baptism. Meaning that what you all today call "repentance" as an act taking place in a meeting is a modern substitute for baptism.

4. Baptism is the God-ordained means by which a person is placed into Christ, identifying with His substitutionary death and atonement (Romans 6:3-7), it is the means by which Christ saves us (1 Peter 3:21). Since apart from the blood there is no release from sins (Hebrews 9:22), and since the blood of Christ is a reference to His death for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3, Revelation 1:5), then baptism is the event in which Christ's death is applied to us as an effective covering or atonement for sins, securing the release (remission or forgiveness) of our sins and debt we thereby had incurred.


5. Every decision has two parts. First, the intention, followed by the actual deciding to do something which happens when the intention is acted upon. If you decide to go to the store, but never leave the house, did you really DECIDE TO GO to the store? If you decide to become a Christian, you need to then actually become a Christian. The mere mental decision to do something is not the person actually choosing a course of action, one must actually DO the thing decided upon. Becoming a Christian is done by being baptized into Christ's Name, making a public confession of Christ before others. If you "decide" to get baptized, have you thereby been baptized? No, you must actually DO it. If you "decide" to turn from sin and follow Christ and be His disciple, have you thereby done it? No, must actually DO it, you must actually cease from sinning and actually become His disciple by being baptized in His Name:

James 2:19-26 KJV
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. [20] But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? [21] Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? [22] Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? [23] And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. [24] Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. [25] Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? [26] For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
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Last edited by Esaias; 10-21-2022 at 08:52 PM.
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  #18  
Old 10-21-2022, 09:19 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Well, you offered no scriptural proof concerning the thief so I'll just move on from that
Do you really believe the thief on the cross is in hell?

I could care less the history of mourners benches, but I am thrilled to see remorse for a sinful life. I don’t care if it is in someone’s living room, in the break room on someone’s lunch break, or at the front of the church. It is good to see repentance followed by baptism in Jesus name baptism. Maybe, I am misunderstanding, but it seems you are saying there is no need for emotion from regret, just get baptized.
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  #19  
Old 10-21-2022, 09:29 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

I have seen more people filled with the Holy Ghost on their knees in prayer than in the baptistry. If people don’t become forgiven until baptism, then how do they receive baptism of the Spirit before water baptism. Your logic is that people born of the Spirit are still in their sins until water baptism. People who are filled with the Spirit will definitely want to become baptized. I am not refuting baptism, but baptism is a work of repentance and not repentance itself.
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  #20  
Old 10-21-2022, 09:38 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Do you really believe the thief on the cross is in hell?

I could care less the history of mourners benches, but I am thrilled to see remorse for a sinful life. I don’t care if it is in someone’s living room, in the break room on someone’s lunch break, or at the front of the church. It is good to see repentance followed by baptism in Jesus name baptism. Maybe, I am misunderstanding, but it seems you are saying there is no need for emotion from regret, just get baptized.
I don't think you have grasped what I have been saying.

Do you believe and preach that people are forgiven of their sins before they are baptised?
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