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  #51  
Old 10-24-2022, 02:06 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Baptism is necessary for the repentant, but forgiveness is by Gods grace alone. Acts 2:38 can unintentionally become a 3 step formula to receive Gods remission of sin, when instead obedience is simply the obvious response of the recipient of Gods grace. The sinner on the cross received no outward demonstration or seal of his faith, but God extended grace to him anyways. This does not negate obedience to the gospel found in the book of Acts and the baptism of the Holy Ghost. The work of God on our lives involves much more of God and less of ourselves then what we sometimes realize.
Bump

This is my original post in this discussion. I may have derailed the discussion from the intention of the original post. You where right along with me.
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  #52  
Old 10-24-2022, 02:08 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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So repentance and belief aren't required to receive forgiveness.



So repentance and belief are the response to being forgiven. You have God forgiving a person by grace, which results in that person becoming a believer who repents.



Which means the thief on the cross is not an example of how people get saved.



The work of God causes us to believe, repent, be baptised, receive the Spirit, and continue steadfast in the original apostolic faith. It does not cause us to believe that alien sinners enter covenant with God apart from repentance and baptism.
This was your response. I didn’t realize we where discussing the distinctions between repentance and remission at this point, since it has already been established that was the same Greek word. I thought you where wanting someone to give scripture for at the point in time remission of sins takes place.

Last edited by good samaritan; 10-24-2022 at 02:11 PM.
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  #53  
Old 10-24-2022, 02:29 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

My response was on how to obtain forgiveness/remission
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  #54  
Old 10-24-2022, 04:59 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Maybe you need to go back and follow the discussion.
I asked for a Bible study showing the following:

"The Bible teaches there is a difference between forgiveness and remission."

And

"The Bible teaches that people are forgiven prior to baptism."

You didn't touch hide nor hair of the first. And for the second you demonstrated "The Bible teaches faith is necessary to be forgiven", which is admirable and certainly true, BUT it is also not in dispute here.

The one passage you cited that might bear on the issue was that of the cripple let down through the roof. But, Jesus hadn't even died yet so using your logic (as pertaining to the issue of forgiveness prior to being baptised) all you've actually shown is that people could be forgiven prior to the cross.

Also, as a side note, did you notice that it says "When He saw THEIR faith..."? It was THEIR faith that prompted Him to declare the cripple's sins were forgiven.

But back to the point, you didn't demonstrate what was asked, even though your post was a direct response to the request.
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  #55  
Old 10-24-2022, 05:03 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Now, it is time for the other side to present a simple Bible study. I have done such, I have presented Bible passages that teach what I am saying here. Now it is time for the other side (especially the pastor) to present a simple straightforward Bible study establishing their doctrine (teaching):

We need a Bible study that does the following:

1. Proves that the Bible teaches a difference between remission and forgiveness, and what that difference is.

2. Prove that the Bible teaches people receive forgiveness of sins before being baptised.

There's a few other things that need to be proven by Scripture, but we can start with these two, since the others depend on how the first two go.
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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Anyone?
Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Luke 5:20
And when he saw their faith, he said unto him, Man, thy sins are forgiven thee.

Jesus went about forgiving sins without any sacraments. Freely forgave with only one condition. Faith!!! We receive forgiveness upon ... faith in Jesus and his sacrifice. True faith and repentance goes hand in hand.

Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.

God has not changed his methods, they have been the same from the beginning. We must put our faith in God to become his children.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.

Now in regarding the sacraments of baptism.

Acts 2:37
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

After believing the word, the believers response was immediate. They where pricked in their hearts (convicted) and asked what they must do?

True faith is going to be followed by immediate obedience. Faith that does not result in repentance, is not faith.

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Repentance and baptism are the response to our faith. Yeeesssss, they are necessary!!! It is not my intent at all, to devalue our downplay the necessity of water baptism. Faith requires obedience to the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Matthew 28:18-20
18......And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
19......Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
20......Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Jesus said to spread this message to all nations and to baptize them in His name. That is exactly what Peter did.

Acts 2:38-39
38......Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39......For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Baptism is part of the obedience that is necessary of our Faith. The question: is it the sacrament itself that works unto salvation or is it our faith. May persuasion is that it is our faith.

I personally believe baptism was instituted more for our benefit than for anything else.

1 Peter 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Baptism is symbolic of the spiritual work that God is doing. Therefore we must obey, but the act of forgiveness and remission is entirely up to God. We donít force forgiveness by sacraments. We receive forgiveness by faith that is proven by the works that follow.

James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

In a nutshell we are probably not even in disagreement on the issue, but simply have a difference of faith explanation.

That leads to another question:

Can a person be saved without baptism?

Let me answer that with a question:

If we put our faith in Jesus as our Lord and savior, must we obey?

Yes, of course.

In the case of deathbed conversions, that is Gods decision. He is the one we will all stand before.
Quote:
Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
My response was on how to obtain forgiveness/remission
Your post was a direct response to me bumping my request for a Bible study.

Maybe you need to try and keep up with the discussion.
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  #56  
Old 10-24-2022, 05:07 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
This was your response. I didnít realize we where discussing the distinctions between repentance and remission at this point, since it has already been established that was the same Greek word. I thought you where wanting someone to give scripture for at the point in time remission of sins takes place.
We weren't discussing "the distinctions between repentance and remission". We were discussing "the distinction between forgiveness and remission."

Are you distracted today? Perhaps you should take a break and try again later?
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  #57  
Old 10-24-2022, 05:24 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
We weren't discussing "the distinctions between repentance and remission". We were discussing "the distinction between forgiveness and remission."

Are you distracted today? Perhaps you should take a break and try again later?
Lol.
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  #58  
Old 10-24-2022, 07:33 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Romans 6:3-8 KJV
Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? [4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. [5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: [6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin. [8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

So according to you they got the Holy Ghost before they were baptized into Christ's death? Before being made free from sin? Interesting...
Naw, that is Peter who said it happened that way to the house of Cornelius!
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  #59  
Old 10-24-2022, 08:09 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

Acts 5
30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. 32And we are his witnesses of these things; and ….so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him .

Atonement through faith by the “blood of Christ”

pro∑pi∑ti∑a∑tion :
noun
the action of propitiating or appeasing a god, spirit, or person.
"he lifted his hands in propitiation"
atonement, especially that of Jesus Christ

Romans 3
5 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness ( that is, the righteous of Jesus Christ)for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God

Colossians 1
18 And he is the head of the body, the church:who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence

Ephesians 1
22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
23 Which is his body
, the fulness of him that filleth all in all


The Church is the body of Christ , bought with his blood. A blood bought church.

Acts 20
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood

….and how does one get into this blood bought body of Christ,

1 Corinthians 12
13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit
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Last edited by james34; 10-24-2022 at 08:32 PM.
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  #60  
Old 10-24-2022, 08:17 PM
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Re: Forgiveness or Remission?

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Originally Posted by good samaritan View Post
Lol.
Am I to conclude from this that a Bible study is not forthcoming?

Let me provide a brief study for the readers.

"The Bible teaches there is NO DIFFERENCE between forgiveness and remission."

First, the word translated as remission is also translated as forgiveness. It is "aphesis":
G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
Thayer Definition:
1) release from bondage or imprisonment
2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
So when you see "remission of sins" you can just as easily say "forgiveness of sins", they are the same thing, according to the Greek.

They are also the same thing according to the English:
Remission
REMIS'SION, n. [L. remissio, from remitto, to send back.]
1. Abatement; relaxation; moderation; as the remission of extreme rigor.
2. Abatement; diminution of intensity; as the remission of the sun's heat; the remission of cold; the remission of close study or of labor.
3. Release; discharge or relinquishment of a claim or right; as the remission of a tax or duty.
4. In medicine, abatement; a temporary subsidence of the force or violence of a disease or of pain, as distinguished from intermission, in which the disease leaves the patient entirely for a time.
5. Forgiveness; pardon; that is, the giving up of the punishment due to a crime; as the remission of sins. Mat 26. Heb 9.

Forgiveness
FORGIV'ENESS, n. forgiv'ness.
1. The act of forgiving; the pardon of an offender, by which he is considered and treated as not guilty. The forgiveness of enemies is a christian duty.
2. The pardon or remission of an offense or crime; as the forgiveness of sin or of injuries.
3. Disposition to pardon; willingness to forgive.
And mild forgiveness intercede to stop the coming blow.
4. Remission of a debt, fine or penalty.
(Webster's Dictionary)
We can also see this from the Bible's usage of the two terms:
Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
(Luk 24:45-49)
In Luke's version of the Great Commission, what is to be preached to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem, is "repentance and remission of sins in His name". Let's us look at how this was carried out by early church:
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(Act 2:38)
Here, Peter preached repentance and remission of sins in the name of Christ, at Jerusalem, in the first post resurrection, post Great Commission sermon. Let's look at another example:
The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
(Act 5:30-32)
Jesus said they were to preach repentance and remission of sins. Peter preached repentance and remission of sins on Pentecost, and here in chapter 5 he is preaching repentance and forgiveness of sins. Clearly, they are the same thing. It is the same message.
Be it known unto you therefore, men and brethren, that through this man is preached unto you the forgiveness of sins:
(Act 13:38)
Here, Paul summarizes his message as preaching forgiveness of sins through Jesus. Repentance is implied in his message because of the warnings given in verses 40 and 41, and the promise of justification given in verse 39. But notice Paul preaches "forgiveness", whereas Jesus said to preach "remission". Of course, in reality, Jesus said preach aphesis, and Paul preached aphesis, as did Peter in BOTH the previously mentioned passages.

Let's look at some other passages:
And I said, Who art thou, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. But rise, and stand upon thy feet: for I have appeared unto thee for this purpose, to make thee a minister and a witness both of these things which thou hast seen, and of those things in the which I will appear unto thee; Delivering thee from the people, and from the Gentiles, unto whom now I send thee, To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.
(Act 26:15-18)
Here is Paul's Great Commission. He is to be a witness, and a preacher. He is to preach on behalf of Jesus (in His name). What is he to preach? Why, "turning... from satan unto God" (repentance) and "forgiveness of sins". This is what Jesus said in Luke when He said "repentance and remission of sins." These two instances of the Great Commission show that remission and forgiveness are the same thing. (Especially since the Greek word used in both cases is aphesis, the SAME WORD.)

Let's look more closely at what Paul taught about both remission and forgiveness:
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
(Rom 3:24-26)
Paul speaks of redemption, the blood, and remission of sins here. But notice:
In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
(Eph 1:7)
Here we have redemption, the blood, and FORGIVENESS of sins. See? They are the same thing. Christ's death provides redemption for us, the remission or forgiveness of sins.

(Note: the word "remission" in Romans 3:25 above is "paresis" which means a letting go or dismissal, and a remission of debts or sins, rather than "aphesis", which is simply a variation of the same word. Aphesis uses the prefix apo- which means "away from", paresis uses the prefix para- which in this case means away. The words are essentially synonyms.)

So in conclusion, there is no difference between "remission of sins" and "forgiveness of sins", they are the same thing.
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