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Old 10-07-2017, 05:35 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Those After the Spirit

Romans teaches us that there is a choice set before us, with our natural tendency to urge toward one direction. There is the oldness of the letter manner of living that governs our lives or the newness of the Spirit.

I'd like to get into some discussion about this with folks here.

Paul described the failure of trying to obey a commandment from the law in Romans 7 when he was commanded to not covet. He noted when that commandment went forth to him, he suddenly could not stop coveting. A weird reaction occurred in his life.

Romans 7:7-11 KJV What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. (9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. (10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

He said that sin actually took advantage of that commandment, and when Paul tried to make himself obey it, sin revived inside his flesh and defeated his attempts. He referred to that defeat as being slain.

Is there anyone who'd like to share your thoughts on this, who also sees that passage in this way?

Look forward to your input.
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Old 10-07-2017, 09:32 PM
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Re: Those After the Spirit

Originalist, it would be good to see you weigh in on this.
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Old 10-10-2017, 10:28 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Those After the Spirit

I don't know if this is relevant, but when I focus on "the rules" (so to speak), I find myself struggling to resist the inclinations of my flesh. They come on with vengeance. But when I just let it go and rest in grace, and focus on Jesus, soaking up the Holy Ghost, I find that the sinful impulses from my flesh seem to just die down and they become far less excited.

It's almost like when I'm home all day and I'm told early that morning that there is one more serving of cookies and cream ice cream and that I'm not to touch it until after dinner. Guess what? I find myself craving that freaking ice cream almost every 30 minutes. But... if nothing was said to me, I'd probably overlook it. LOL

Last edited by Aquila; 10-10-2017 at 10:31 AM.
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Old 10-10-2017, 10:33 AM
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Re: Those After the Spirit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I don't know if this is relevant, but when I focus on "the rules" (so to speak), I find myself struggling to resist the inclinations of my flesh. They come on with vengeance. But when I just let it go and rest in grace, and focus on Jesus, soaking up the Holy Ghost, I find that the sinful impulses from my flesh seem to just die down and they become far less excited.

It's almost like when I'm home all day and I'm told early that morning that there is one more serving of cookies and cream ice cream and that I'm not to touch it until after dinner. Guess what? I find myself craving that freaking ice cream almost every 30 minutes. But... if nothing was said to me, I'd probably overlook it. LOL
That is exactly what Paul tried to explain in Romans 7. He is using the phrase "walking after the flesh" to refer to making ourselves obey the law. Since that only excites the lusts of the flesh in us, in just the way you described, the alternative route to living above sin is walking after the Spirit... resting in the empowerment of God's grace and Spirit to cause us to live righteously.

Read Romans 8 with that in mind, and it call comes together.

People think walking after the flesh is restricted to sinful lusting, and obviously that is after the flesh. But Paul is including efforts to serve God using fleshly power to make ourselves obey rules when he uses the term in Romans 8.
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Old 10-10-2017, 11:09 AM
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Re: Those After the Spirit

After Paul stated the method that brought him what he called "death", enabling sin to slay his attempts to serve God by law-keeping, he used this description:
Romans 7:18-19 KJV For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Notice his words about having the desire or the will to do good. As far as sincerely wanting to serve God by law with everything in him, he had that down pat. the WILL or DESIRE was there. But the ability was not. He was not faking a desire when he sought to stop lusting or coveting earlier in the chapter:
Romans 7:10-11 KJV And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
So, after he walks us through his divinely inspired reasoning of such an ordeal, he summarizes his conclusions and proceeds to give the remedy.
Romans 7:25b .....So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
When he said he served the law of God with HIS MIND, he was describing what he just stated in verse 18. He had the will to perform God's law. His MIND is where HIS WILL is. So as far as his mind was concerned, he was in agreement with law, so as to enable him to say he served God with his mind.

But we all know we cannot just agree with the Law, but actually LIVE IT OUT. We need more than mental assent. But because verse 18 stated he had the will but not the ability, this is why verse 25 ends by saying, "but with the flesh the law of sin."

His mind was all for God's law. he did not disagree with it in any way. He just could not keep it. His mind was there, but actual performance was not. And instead of serving God with his flesh like His mind was already serving God, his flesh served the law OF SIN.

Serving God by Law requires our MINDS to serve it by agreeing it is what we should do. From there we then proceed to serve God with our actual actions which require the flesh's involvement. But when it came to Paul's experience, the service to God's law stopped with his mind, and could not carry through into his actions using his flesh.

And the beginning of chapter 8 drives home the ANSWER!

Because 7:25 says he could not serve God's law with His flesh, he then realized HE HAD TO STOP WALKING AFTER THAT FLESH to serve God.
Romans 7:25b-8:1 ...So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Paul's conclusion is that since the flesh only wound up serving the law of sin instead of the law of God, we cannot serve God by WALKING AFTER THAT FLESH. And this is where the phrase "walk after the flesh" comes into the equation and is understood to refer to attempts at serving God by making flesh do what the law said to do, and what the mind agreed must be done. It is the service to god BY OLDNESS OF THE LETTER (7:6).

And he proceeds from there to say :
Romans 8:2 KJV For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Instead of walking after the flesh to serve God, we need to walk after the Spirit. Why? Because the law of the Spirit of Life frees us from the irresistable pressure of sin that we experience when we try to make ourselves obey a written commandment.

In fact, when he rhetorically asked who would deliver him from his body, after having stated SIN is in that bldy's flesh, he provided the answer:
Romans 7:24-25a KJV O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ...

God would deliver him, and God would do it through Jesus Christ!

And that brings us back around full circle to what chapter 7 started to say:
Romans 7:4-6 KJV Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. (5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. (6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Serving in newness of Spirit is walking after the Spirit. Serving in oldness of the letter is walking after the flesh.
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Old 10-10-2017, 02:56 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Those After the Spirit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I don't know if this is relevant, but when I focus on "the rules" (so to speak), I find myself struggling to resist the inclinations of my flesh. They come on with vengeance. But when I just let it go and rest in grace, and focus on Jesus, soaking up the Holy Ghost, I find that the sinful impulses from my flesh seem to just die down and they become far less excited.

It's almost like when I'm home all day and I'm told early that morning that there is one more serving of cookies and cream ice cream and that I'm not to touch it until after dinner. Guess what? I find myself craving that freaking ice cream almost every 30 minutes. But... if nothing was said to me, I'd probably overlook it. LOL
Good post.
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Old 10-10-2017, 04:37 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Those After the Spirit

IF YOU LOVE ME....keep my commandments. John 14:15

Love for Jesus COMES FIRST.
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Old 10-10-2017, 06:46 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Those After the Spirit

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"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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Old 10-11-2017, 06:21 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Those After the Spirit

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
After Paul stated the method that brought him what he called "death", enabling sin to slay his attempts to serve God by law-keeping, he used this description:
Romans 7:18-19 KJV For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Notice his words about having the desire or the will to do good. As far as sincerely wanting to serve God by law with everything in him, he had that down pat. the WILL or DESIRE was there. But the ability was not. He was not faking a desire when he sought to stop lusting or coveting earlier in the chapter:
Romans 7:10-11 KJV And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death. (11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
So, after he walks us through his divinely inspired reasoning of such an ordeal, he summarizes his conclusions and proceeds to give the remedy.
Romans 7:25b .....So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
When he said he served the law of God with HIS MIND, he was describing what he just stated in verse 18. He had the will to perform God's law. His MIND is where HIS WILL is. So as far as his mind was concerned, he was in agreement with law, so as to enable him to say he served God with his mind.

But we all know we cannot just agree with the Law, but actually LIVE IT OUT. We need more than mental assent. But because verse 18 stated he had the will but not the ability, this is why verse 25 ends by saying, "but with the flesh the law of sin."

His mind was all for God's law. he did not disagree with it in any way. He just could not keep it. His mind was there, but actual performance was not. And instead of serving God with his flesh like His mind was already serving God, his flesh served the law OF SIN.

Serving God by Law requires our MINDS to serve it by agreeing it is what we should do. From there we then proceed to serve God with our actual actions which require the flesh's involvement. But when it came to Paul's experience, the service to God's law stopped with his mind, and could not carry through into his actions using his flesh.

And the beginning of chapter 8 drives home the ANSWER!

Because 7:25 says he could not serve God's law with His flesh, he then realized HE HAD TO STOP WALKING AFTER THAT FLESH to serve God.
Romans 7:25b-8:1 ...So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Paul's conclusion is that since the flesh only wound up serving the law of sin instead of the law of God, we cannot serve God by WALKING AFTER THAT FLESH. And this is where the phrase "walk after the flesh" comes into the equation and is understood to refer to attempts at serving God by making flesh do what the law said to do, and what the mind agreed must be done. It is the service to god BY OLDNESS OF THE LETTER (7:6).

And he proceeds from there to say :
Romans 8:2 KJV For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Instead of walking after the flesh to serve God, we need to walk after the Spirit. Why? Because the law of the Spirit of Life frees us from the irresistable pressure of sin that we experience when we try to make ourselves obey a written commandment.

In fact, when he rhetorically asked who would deliver him from his body, after having stated SIN is in that bldy's flesh, he provided the answer:
Romans 7:24-25a KJV O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? (25) I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. ...

God would deliver him, and God would do it through Jesus Christ!

And that brings us back around full circle to what chapter 7 started to say:
Romans 7:4-6 KJV Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God. (5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death. (6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
Serving in newness of Spirit is walking after the Spirit. Serving in oldness of the letter is walking after the flesh.
Wow. Good stuff.
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Old 10-11-2017, 07:26 AM
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Re: Those After the Spirit

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Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
Wow. Good stuff.
Thanks!

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