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  #1  
Old 02-27-2007, 06:31 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Calling all PAJCers: When does Justification and Remission Happen?

Interestingly, I have come to realize there are at least 3 schools of thought on the relational concepts of justification and remission in the PAJC view.

All believe remission of sins takes place at water baptism ... but there is no consensus on when we experience justification.

Here are the 3 schools of thought -

Some PAJCers believe justification happens before baptism and remission at baptism


Sabellius:
Quote:
I believe that Justification occurs before any baptism. I believe that Justification refers, naturally, to the declaring of an individual as righteous. God declares us just. How else could the Spirt of God enter Cornelius (c.f. Acts 10:1-46) prior to water baptism?

I believe that baptism requires a synergistic effort and that it means both--symbolic and that genuine spiritual realities are conferred at water baptism. Symbolically, we are buried with Him in the likeness of His death (Colossians 2:12) and are identified with Christ at baptism. Literally, we are now in the "Kingdom of God"; have a record of sin with a penalty of death, remitted or discharged.
Some believe justification happens after water baptism along with remission

Elder Epley:

Quote:
My friend Sab and I have a major disagreement here rather than justification a measure of sanctification has taken place in that he separated himself to seek God and God sent him a preacher with sayings words that complete the sanctification and declare him justified by giving the the HG and remitting his sins in baptism. I think you have the cart before the horse though we are own the same train. Now Sab you are smarter than I and certainly more wordy but sorry you are wrong on this but we are yet friends before you scald me think it through. The religious world says justified THEN sanctified but actually everything is SET APART unto God and from this world that is repentance BEFORE justification takes place!
Quote:
“A man is not justified without remission of sins. NOr is his sanctification complete without remission of sins. And God's seal on his life through the HGB is part and parcel of this experience. Not three steps three elements blood-water-Spirit!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Quote:
… a man that has repented is justified when his sins are remitted at baptism. His record is cleared and through faith his sins are transferred to the sin bearer and His righteousness is imputed to us. Repentance and Baptism completes justification and His infilling completes sanctification initially. I believe sanctification is entire but not complete my nature will need more mortification in my walk with Him.

Some believe justification is not complete until all the 3 steps are completed with remission occurring at baptism

David Bernard, The New Birth


Quote:
Since justification comes through faith, it occurs when a person fully exercises saving faith, which includes obedience to the gospel Therefore, the full work of justification comes by faith as one repents, is baptized in Jesus' name, and receives the Holy Spirit.
In I Corinthians 6:9-10 Paul listed ten categories of unrighteous people who will not inherit the kingdom of God. He continued: "And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God" (I Corinthians 6:11). In other words, justification occurred when they were baptized in Jesus' name and baptized with the Holy Spirit. Although this verse does not specifically mention the word baptism, Smith's Dictionary of the Bible explains it as referring to baptism: "It is generally believed that here is an allusion to being baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ… [T]he reference to baptism seems unquestionable." [253] A Baptist theologian asserted that, "The voice of scholarship is unanimous in affirming the association with baptism." [254]

Further examination of the purposes of repentance, water baptism, and the Spirit baptism demonstrates that the work of justification takes place in all three. At repentance, man and God begin to form a personal relationship, which lays a foundation for water and Spirit baptism. At water baptism, God remits sin (Acts 2:38), which corresponds to the first element of justification.

The Holy Spirit imparts the righteousness of Christ, for the Spirit is Christ in us: "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit" (Romans 8:4); "But ye are not in the flesh but in the Spirit if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness" (Romans 8:9-10). The indwelling Spirit enables us to receive future salvation (Romans 8:11). Through the Spirit we qualify for God's blessings and promises (Romans 8:15-17; Galatians 3:14). In short, the baptism of the Spirit corresponds to the second element of justification.

The work of justification begins at initial repentance from sin and is completed at the time of water and Spirit baptism. Therefore, justification is instantaneous at the time of the new birth as a whole. It would be incorrect to identify justification solely with one aspect of the new birth, because the new birth must be regarded as a single whole. In one sense, however, justification is available on a continuing basis for sins committed and repented of after the new birth experience.
_______________________________

The questions that beg to be asked are:

1. What is justification? When does it happen?
2. What is remission? Does it happen at water baptism?
3. What are the underlying reasons for this difference of opinion?


Let's refrain from analogies and let's make our points based on the Word.
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Old 02-27-2007, 06:41 PM
Nahum Nahum is offline
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Daniel, if you start one more thread with the letters PAJC or PCI in it, I'm going to do this to you.

ARRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
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Old 02-27-2007, 06:43 PM
SDG SDG is offline
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Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
Daniel, if you start one more thread with the letters PAJC or PCI in it, I'm going to do this to you.

ARRRRRGGGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!
I expect your exegesis by morning.
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  #4  
Old 02-27-2007, 07:06 PM
Ronzo
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Originally Posted by Pastor Poster View Post
Daniel, if you start one more thread with the letters PAJC or PCI in it, I'm going to do this to you.
Me too.


Bad Danny! BAD! BAD!


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  #5  
Old 02-27-2007, 07:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Ronzo View Post
Me too.


Bad Danny! BAD! BAD!


Give me a quick answer ... Ronzo ... to the questions because I know your answer will be ....
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  #6  
Old 02-27-2007, 07:09 PM
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RevDWW RevDWW is offline
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Quote:
Remission G859
ἄφεσις
aphesis
Thayer Definition:
1) release from bondage or imprisonment
2) forgiveness or pardon, of sins (letting them go as if they had never been committed), remission of the penalty
What did John the Baptist preach about remission?
Quote:
Mark 1:4 (KJV) 4John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.
Luke 3:2 - 3 (KJV) 2Annas and Caiaphas being the high priests, the word of God came unto John the son of Zacharias in the wilderness. 3And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins;
What was said of Jesus?
Quote:
Luke 1:76 - Luke 1:77 (KJV) 76And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; 77To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins,

What did Jesus teach?
Quote:
Luke 24:47 (KJV) 47And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
What did Peter preach starting at Jerusalem?
Quote:
Acts 2:38 (KJV) 38Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
What did Peter continue to preach even to the Gentiles?
Quote:
Acts 10:42 - 48 (KJV) 42And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead.
43To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
44While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
45And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
46For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
47Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
48And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.
Seems to say that remission comes with Baptism.
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

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Old 02-27-2007, 07:10 PM
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and justification ... DW.
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Old 02-27-2007, 07:11 PM
Ronzo
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Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
Give me a quick answer ... Ronzo ... to the questions because I know your answer will be ....
My answer will be what? That you're a troublemaker? lol
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Old 02-27-2007, 07:12 PM
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RevDWW RevDWW is offline
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Originally Posted by Ronzo View Post
My answer will be what? That you're a troublemaker? lol
To that I say a big AMEN
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

"Do not believe everthing you read on the internet" - Abe Lincoln
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Old 02-27-2007, 07:13 PM
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RevDWW RevDWW is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea View Post
and justification ... DW.
If you continue to leave out my other W I'm going to ignore you......you must have all three to hear from me.........


J/K. I'll get to the justification in good time.
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Psa 119:165 (KJV) 165 Great peace have they which love thy law: and nothing shall offend them.

"Do not believe everthing you read on the internet" - Abe Lincoln
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