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Old 11-04-2007, 06:40 PM
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Forgiveness and/or Remission

I'm not trying to start up an old argument here. We've discussed this before and we all have our opinions on it. The reason for this post is that I have looked up all references for the two Greek words usually translated remission and forgiveness in our New Testament. I have also included the places where they occur in the Greek Old Testament which was the version usually used by the New Testament writers.

aphesis, Strongs number 859, translated release, forgiveness, pardon, liberty, deliverance, return, let go, remission, let rest, jubilee

aphiemi, Strong’s number 863, translated let go, dismiss, discharge, forgive, remit. leave, suffer(permit), withhold, purge, pardon

These words are used in our Greek New Testament and in the Greek version (called the Septuagint or LXX) of the Old Testament. The writers of our NT often quoted from the LXX instead of the Hebrew version. Seeing how the words were used in the Old Testament gives us an idea of how it was used by the writers of the New Testament

1. Here are the instances of aphesis (Strongs 859) and how it is translated in the KJV. It might be translated differently in some other version. For example in Acts 2:38 the KJV says remission but some other versions say forgiveness. Sometimes the word occurs more than once in a verse:

Ex 18:2 sent back
Ex 23:11 let rest
Lev 16:26 let go
Lev 25:10, 11-13, 28, 30, 31, 33, 40, 41, 50, 52, 54 liberty, jubilee,
Lev 27:17, 18, 21, 23, 24 jubilee,
Num 36:4 jubilee
Deut 15:1, 2, 3, 9 release
Deut 31:10 release
2 Sam 22:16 channels
Esther 2:18 release
Isaiah 58:6 go free
Isaiah 61:1 liberty
Jer 34:8, 15, 17 liberty
Lam 3:48 rivers
Ezek 46:17 liberty
Joel 1:20 rivers
Joel 3:18 revers
Matt 26:28 remission
Mark 1:4 remission
Mark 3:29 forgiveness
Luke 1:77 remission
Luke 3:3 remission
Luke 4:18 deliverance, liberty
Luke 24:47 remission
Acs 2:38 remission
Acts 5:31 forgiveness
Acts 10:43 remission
Acts 13:38 forgiveness
Acts 26:18 forgiveness
Eph 1:7 forgiveness
Col 1:14 forgiveness
Heb 9:22 remission
Heb 10:18 remission

2 Here are the instances of aphiemi (Strongs 863) and how it is translated in the KJV. It might be translated differently in some other version. Note that the word suffer in KJV means to permit. Sometimes the word is used more than once in a verse

Gen 18:26 spare
Gen 20:6 suffered
Gen 35:18 in departing
Gen 42:33 leave
Gen 50:17 forgive
EX 9:21 left
Ex 12:23 suffer
Ex 32:32 forgive
Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35 forgiven
Lev 5:10, 13, 13, 16, 18 forgiven
Lev 16:10 let go
Lev 19:22 forgiven
Num 14:19 pardon
Num 15;25, 26, 28 forgiven
Num 22:13 give leave
Deut 15:2 release
Deut 26:10 set before
Josh 10:19 suffer
Jud 1:34 suffer
Jud 2:23 left
Jud 3:1, 28 left, suffered
Jud 9:9, 11 leave, forsake
Jud 16:26 suffer
1 Sam 17:20, 22, 28 left
1 Sam 18:2 let
2 Sam 15:16 left
2 Sam 16:11 let
2 Sam 21:10 suffered
1 Kings 19:3 left
2 Kings 4:27 let
1 Chron 16:21 suffered
2 Chron 28:14 left
Ezra 6:7 let alone
Neh 9:17 pardon
Job 39:5, 14 sent out, leaveth
Ps 17:14 leave
Ps 25:18 forgive
Ps 32:1, 5 forgiven, forgavest
Ps 85:2 hast forgiven
Ps 105:14, 20 suffered, let go
Prov 4:13 let go
Ecc 2:18 leave
Ecc 5:12 suffer
Ecc 10:4 leave
Ecc 11:6 withhold not
Song 3:4 let go
Isa 22:14 purged
Isa 32:14 left
Isa 33:24 forgiven
Isa 55:7 pardon
Jer 12:7 left
Jer 34:10 let go
Ezek 16:39 leave
Mt 3:15 suffer, suffered
Mt 4:11, 20, 22 leaveth, left
Mt 5:24, 40 leave, let have
Mt 6: 12, 14, 15 forgive
Mt 7:4 let
Mt 8:15, 22 left, let
Mt 9:2, 5, 6 forgive, forgiven
Mt 12:31, 32 forgiven
Mt 13:30, 36 let, sent away
Mt 15:14 let alone
Mt 18:12, 21, 27, 32, 35 leave, forgive, forgave
Mt 19: 14, 27, 29 suffer, forsaken
Mt 22:22, 25 left
Mt 23:14, 23, 28 suffer, omitted, leave undone, left
Mt 24:2, 40, 41 left
Mt 26:44, 56 left, forsook
Mt 27:49, 50 let be, yielded up
Mk 1:18, 20, 31, 34 forsook, left, suffered
Mk 2:5, 7, 9, 10 forgiven, forgive
Mk 3:28 forgiven
Mk 4:12, 36 forgiven, sent away
Mk 5:19, 37 suffered
Mk 7:8, 12, 27 laying aside, suffer, let
Mk 8:13 left
Mk 10:14, 28, 29 suffer, left
Mk 11:6, 16, 25, 26 let go, suffer, forgive
Mk 12:12, 19, 20, 21, 22 left, leave,
Mk 13:2, 34 left
Mk 14:6, 50 let alone, forsook
Mk 15:36, 37 let alone, gave up
Lk 4:39 left
Lk 5:11, 20, 21, 23, 24 forsook, forgiven, forgive,
Lk 6:42 let
Lk 7:47, 48, 49 forgiven
Lk 8:51 suffered
Lk 9:60 let
Lk 10:30 leaving
Lk 11:4, 42 forgive, leave undone
Lk 12:10, 39 forgiven, suffered
Lk 13:8, 35 let alone, left
Lk 17:3, 4, 34, 35, 36 forgive, left
Lk 18:16, 28, 29 suffer, left
Lk 19:44 leave
Lk 21:6 left
Lk 23:34 forgive
Jn 4:3, 28, 52 left
Jn 8:29 left
Jn 10:12 leaveth
Jn 11:44, 48 let go, let alone
Jn 12:7 let alone
Jn 14:18, 27 leave
Jn 16:28, 32 leave
Jn 18:8 let
Jn 20:23 remit, remitted
Acts 8:22 forgiven
Acts 14:17 left
Rom 1:27 leaving
Rom 4:7 forgiven
1 Cor 7:11, 12, 13 let, put away
Heb 2:8 left
Heb 6:1 leaving
James 5:15 forgiven
1 Jn 1:9 forgive
1 Jn 2:12 forgiven
Rev 2:4 left,
Rev 11:9 suffer
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Old 11-04-2007, 07:25 PM
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It's never made sense to me that God would forgive and then hang on to what He's forgiven us of.

We counsel people to forgive and forget based on what Scripture teaches and on God's grace and mercy that He has shown us.

The debt was settled on Calvary.
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Old 11-04-2007, 08:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Felicity View Post
It's never made sense to me that God would forgive and then hang on to what He's forgiven us of.

We counsel people to forgive and forget based on what Scripture teaches and on God's grace and mercy that He has shown us.

The debt was settled on Calvary.
and it never will make sense.

thanks sam for the post
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Old 11-04-2007, 08:50 PM
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Then please explain how men had forgiveness of sins in the OT but NOT remission?
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Old 11-04-2007, 08:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Then please explain how men had forgiveness of sins in the OT but NOT remission?
http://www.inchristalone.org/RemissionOfSins.htm

Steve, here's a link (above) that will help you understand your question above.

Here's just a tiny piece of the article there.

The question, "What does Peter mean in Acts 2:38 by ‘be baptized. . . for the remission of sins’?," has provoked several different answers in Church history. Groups such as the Church of Christ, the Church of Jesus Christ: Latter Day Saints, and the United Pentecostal Church, interpret Peter to be saying to his hearers that they could obtain remission of sins by the means of baptism. If Peter’s hearers remained un-baptized, then they remained unforgiven by God as well. This way of interpreting Peter’s statement has led these groups to promulgate a doctrine of salvation that is more sacerdotal/sacramental than it is Reformational/Evangelical. The current form of this interpretation holds that since remission of sins is by baptism, then one cannot be forgiven without baptism. Thus, Baptism is the instrumental cause of our remission of sins.

First, it is important to clear up the use of the terms, "remission" and "forgiveness." An old argument has been used to attempt to solve the problem of Acts 15:9 and Acts 2:38. It proposes that one is forgiven at the point of faith, but one’s sins are not remitted until baptism. The error in this teaching is that, while the English translations give us two words, the original language – Greek – uses only one. Both remission and forgiveness are the English translation of the single Greek noun aphesis or verb aphiemi. Thus, both forgiveness and remission mean the same thing. The root meaning of these words is to "send away or dismiss." In the New Testament this word takes a deeper theological meaning. Vine says that this word:

[F]irstly signifies the remission of the punishment due to sinful conduct, . . . secondly, it involves the complete removal of the cause of offense; such remission is based upon the vicarious and propitiatory sacrifice of Christ.. In the O.T. atoning sacrifice and forgiveness are often associated. [W. E. Vine, Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Revell, 1966, pp. 122,123]

A number of current proponents of the UPCI teaching have dropped this argument because they have been exposed to enough education in the Greek New Testament that they now know this argument is misinformed. At the same time, several important exegetical and theological implications of their interpretation of Acts 2:38 remain to be challenged. Without looking at all the exegetical and theological problems we will look at two. First is the exegetical, and second is the theological.
__________________________________________________ ___________

Do take a moment and read the article...I know you say, " you could'nt order a hot dog in Hebrew.....maybe Br. Gilespie can help you out. He seems to have a better understanding of it than you or me
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  #6  
Old 11-04-2007, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam View Post
I'm not trying to start up an old argument here. We've discussed this before and we all have our opinions on it. The reason for this post is that I have looked up all references for the two Greek words usually translated remission and forgiveness in our New Testament. I have also included the places where they occur in the Greek Old Testament which was the version usually used by the New Testament writers.

aphesis, Strongs number 859, translated release, forgiveness, pardon, liberty, deliverance, return, let go, remission, let rest, jubilee

aphiemi, Strong’s number 863, translated let go, dismiss, discharge, forgive, remit. leave, suffer(permit), withhold, purge, pardon

These words are used in our Greek New Testament and in the Greek version (called the Septuagint or LXX) of the Old Testament. The writers of our NT often quoted from the LXX instead of the Hebrew version. Seeing how the words were used in the Old Testament gives us an idea of how it was used by the writers of the New Testament

1. Here are the instances of aphesis (Strongs 859) and how it is translated in the KJV. It might be translated differently in some other version. For example in Acts 2:38 the KJV says remission but some other versions say forgiveness. Sometimes the word occurs more than once in a verse:

Ex 18:2 sent back
Ex 23:11 let rest
Lev 16:26 let go
Lev 25:10, 11-13, 28, 30, 31, 33, 40, 41, 50, 52, 54 liberty, jubilee,
Lev 27:17, 18, 21, 23, 24 jubilee,
Num 36:4 jubilee
Deut 15:1, 2, 3, 9 release
Deut 31:10 release
2 Sam 22:16 channels
Esther 2:18 release
Isaiah 58:6 go free
Isaiah 61:1 liberty
Jer 34:8, 15, 17 liberty
Lam 3:48 rivers
Ezek 46:17 liberty
Joel 1:20 rivers
Joel 3:18 revers
Matt 26:28 remission
Mark 1:4 remission
Mark 3:29 forgiveness
Luke 1:77 remission
Luke 3:3 remission
Luke 4:18 deliverance, liberty
Luke 24:47 remission
Acs 2:38 remission
Acts 5:31 forgiveness
Acts 10:43 remission
Acts 13:38 forgiveness
Acts 26:18 forgiveness
Eph 1:7 forgiveness
Col 1:14 forgiveness
Heb 9:22 remission
Heb 10:18 remission

2 Here are the instances of aphiemi (Strongs 863) and how it is translated in the KJV. It might be translated differently in some other version. Note that the word suffer in KJV means to permit. Sometimes the word is used more than once in a verse

Gen 18:26 spare
Gen 20:6 suffered
Gen 35:18 in departing
Gen 42:33 leave
Gen 50:17 forgive
EX 9:21 left
Ex 12:23 suffer
Ex 32:32 forgive
Lev 4:20, 26, 31, 35 forgiven
Lev 5:10, 13, 13, 16, 18 forgiven
Lev 16:10 let go
Lev 19:22 forgiven
Num 14:19 pardon
Num 15;25, 26, 28 forgiven
Num 22:13 give leave
Deut 15:2 release
Deut 26:10 set before
Josh 10:19 suffer
Jud 1:34 suffer
Jud 2:23 left
Jud 3:1, 28 left, suffered
Jud 9:9, 11 leave, forsake
Jud 16:26 suffer
1 Sam 17:20, 22, 28 left
1 Sam 18:2 let
2 Sam 15:16 left
2 Sam 16:11 let
2 Sam 21:10 suffered
1 Kings 19:3 left
2 Kings 4:27 let
1 Chron 16:21 suffered
2 Chron 28:14 left
Ezra 6:7 let alone
Neh 9:17 pardon
Job 39:5, 14 sent out, leaveth
Ps 17:14 leave
Ps 25:18 forgive
Ps 32:1, 5 forgiven, forgavest
Ps 85:2 hast forgiven
Ps 105:14, 20 suffered, let go
Prov 4:13 let go
Ecc 2:18 leave
Ecc 5:12 suffer
Ecc 10:4 leave
Ecc 11:6 withhold not
Song 3:4 let go
Isa 22:14 purged
Isa 32:14 left
Isa 33:24 forgiven
Isa 55:7 pardon
Jer 12:7 left
Jer 34:10 let go
Ezek 16:39 leave
Mt 3:15 suffer, suffered
Mt 4:11, 20, 22 leaveth, left
Mt 5:24, 40 leave, let have
Mt 6: 12, 14, 15 forgive
Mt 7:4 let
Mt 8:15, 22 left, let
Mt 9:2, 5, 6 forgive, forgiven
Mt 12:31, 32 forgiven
Mt 13:30, 36 let, sent away
Mt 15:14 let alone
Mt 18:12, 21, 27, 32, 35 leave, forgive, forgave
Mt 19: 14, 27, 29 suffer, forsaken
Mt 22:22, 25 left
Mt 23:14, 23, 28 suffer, omitted, leave undone, left
Mt 24:2, 40, 41 left
Mt 26:44, 56 left, forsook
Mt 27:49, 50 let be, yielded up
Mk 1:18, 20, 31, 34 forsook, left, suffered
Mk 2:5, 7, 9, 10 forgiven, forgive
Mk 3:28 forgiven
Mk 4:12, 36 forgiven, sent away
Mk 5:19, 37 suffered
Mk 7:8, 12, 27 laying aside, suffer, let
Mk 8:13 left
Mk 10:14, 28, 29 suffer, left
Mk 11:6, 16, 25, 26 let go, suffer, forgive
Mk 12:12, 19, 20, 21, 22 left, leave,
Mk 13:2, 34 left
Mk 14:6, 50 let alone, forsook
Mk 15:36, 37 let alone, gave up
Lk 4:39 left
Lk 5:11, 20, 21, 23, 24 forsook, forgiven, forgive,
Lk 6:42 let
Lk 7:47, 48, 49 forgiven
Lk 8:51 suffered
Lk 9:60 let
Lk 10:30 leaving
Lk 11:4, 42 forgive, leave undone
Lk 12:10, 39 forgiven, suffered
Lk 13:8, 35 let alone, left
Lk 17:3, 4, 34, 35, 36 forgive, left
Lk 18:16, 28, 29 suffer, left
Lk 19:44 leave
Lk 21:6 left
Lk 23:34 forgive
Jn 4:3, 28, 52 left
Jn 8:29 left
Jn 10:12 leaveth
Jn 11:44, 48 let go, let alone
Jn 12:7 let alone
Jn 14:18, 27 leave
Jn 16:28, 32 leave
Jn 18:8 let
Jn 20:23 remit, remitted
Acts 8:22 forgiven
Acts 14:17 left
Rom 1:27 leaving
Rom 4:7 forgiven
1 Cor 7:11, 12, 13 let, put away
Heb 2:8 left
Heb 6:1 leaving
James 5:15 forgiven
1 Jn 1:9 forgive
1 Jn 2:12 forgiven
Rev 2:4 left,
Rev 11:9 suffer
What is your conclusion so I can ponder why you shared these?
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Old 11-04-2007, 09:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Epley View Post
Then please explain how men had forgiveness of sins in the OT but NOT remission?

Jesus said, Thy sins beforgiven thee. Go and sin no more. We can have forgivness and remission of sins we have already committed.

It is the sins we will commit that we need to seek forgiveness then the cross reaches from Baptism to the grave.

Your question is a powerful one.

I am looking for some to try and answer.

Only there could be no remission of sins without the shedding ot Blood.

Not of goats and doves, but of the saviour Christ the Lord...
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Old 11-04-2007, 09:42 PM
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I'm not the same brighest bulb on the string ,and I certainly do believe that ACTS.2:38 is to be obeyed and proclaimed.
But only Jesus Christ ,the Mighty God can give a person a dismissal of their sins.
But everything God commands us to do is both essential and necessary.
It seems to me that there is a middle ground,between the view of sacramental baptisamal regeneration doctrine ,and the view that baptism is just a symbolic ritual ,both views seem to go out on extreme limbs.
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Old 11-04-2007, 09:43 PM
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Men recieved forgiveness in the OT but sins were NOT taken away. Thus NOT remitted. Heb. 9 & 10 gives lessons on this subject.
Thus forgiveness though connected with remission is NOT remission.
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Old 11-04-2007, 10:00 PM
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If someone sincerly repents about sin in their life and they really mean business and God forgives them is their sins still held agains't them ?
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There they can find plenty of fault.
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