You Said:QUOTE=Esaias
"You need to bring forward the Bible statements that teach 1)there are fallen angels in the sense you understand that term to mean"
QUOTE=1ofthechosen
1.But here
Revelation 12:3-4 "And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold
a great red dragon(Satan, or the devil), having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. [4] And
his (Satan, or the devil) tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born." Stars represent angels throughout the book of Revelation. 1/3 fell by following the Great Dragon Lucifer. (See
Isaiah 14:12-14, Ezekial 28:13-15,
Luke 10:18-20)
To Which you said:QUOTE=Esaias
"Stars represent humans" and you brought up some scriptures.
I say to this: But in this book Stars are defined by the text. Go with me to
Revelations 1:20 "The mystery of the seven
stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven
stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." Now, while in the context of the 7 churches in the 1st 3 chapters, "stars" by definition are as Strong's Say's "Messengers, or Pastors". But
Revelation 12:3-4 defines where these stars are look at verse 4 "third part of the
stars of heaven" so this is referring to fallen angels as the text says "his (Satan, or the devil) tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth."
You also said:QUOTE=Esaias
"Furthermore, the text under discussion says nothing about stars."
I say: This was answered to the original question, hence the numbers that said "You need to bring forward the Bible statements that teach 1)there are fallen angels in the sense you understand that term to mean." There you have it brother above, my answer to it, using scripture.
Then you said: QUOTE=Esaias
"And again, the events of
Revelation 12 occur far after the events of Daniel, so even if
Revelation 12 depicts a "fall of angels" it had not yet happened in Daniel's time."
To which I say: this is a vision. This is starting at the beginning of the Chapter in verse 1-2 is showing What was in the present, and what was coming. While this in verse in 3-4 happened before the fall what had happened, what was, and what was to come. So verse 3-4 took place before the book of Daniel in fact, verse 3-4 took place before
Genesis 1:1! That's why Jesus say's in
Luke 10:18 (Before Revelations was written before He was glorified, so showing this is a thing that happened in the past. And this was His Diety speaking that always was, and always will be!) "I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven."
Next Part you said:QUOTE=Esaias
"you need to bring forward the Bible statements that teach 2)the prince of Persia is in fact one of these fallen angels."
To Which I said: QUOTE=1ofthechosen
"
Ephesians 6:12 "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places." You can try to explain this away as human Government but what comes right after it in verse 16 "above all, taking the shield of faith with which you will be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked one." The armor of God is not for fighting Governmental forces, but it says in the scripture in verse 16 that it's "for fighting the "wicked one".
To Which you said:QUOTE=Esaias
"I already exegeted the passage and the entire context of the verse in question. The armour of God was explained, as well as how Paul said to put it on and use it, which is the basis for my original claim anyway. Try again."
To which I say:
And to that my answer is simple, but I showed where the text said different, and you tried to side step that. So tell me how the armor of God is going to help me, to guard myself from the fiery darts of human rulership? And please use scriptures.
And also here in
Ephesians 2:3-4 "Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, [B]according to the
prince (which is short for principality)
of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." So while there maybe princes of the world, there are definitely spirits that are called "prince of the Power of the air." Since this comes from the same letter as
Ephesians 6:12 that speaks for itself.
So when the Bible say's in
Daniel 10:13 "But
the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo,
Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia."
Ephesians 2:3-4 show that there is Evil spiritual Principalities (i.e. fallen angels), and
Daniel 10:13 say's explicitly that there is good spiritual principalities as the text say's "
Michael, one of the chief princes" Letting us know that "
the prince of the kingdom of Persia" is one of those evil spiritual principalities. (i.e. fallen angels)
Then you said:QUOTE=Esaias
You need to bring forward the Bible statements that teach3)that fallen angels can withstand in physical (for lack of a better word) confrontation with angels for any length of time."
To which I said:QUOTE=1ofthechosen
"3.
Jude 1:9 "Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee." And
Revelation 12:7-8 "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, [8] And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven."
That's why it took Michael because Gabriel is just a messenger angel, it took the warrior angel just like in this case with Prince of Persia."
To Which you said: QUOTE=Esaias
"Simply quoting unrelated verses does not prove anything. The Enoch thread deals extensively with the Jude verses, please see that thread. Jude is quoting from Jewish mythological literature in order to make a point about those who teach the angels fell, and it isn't the point you think he is making."
To which I say:
Now, then if you want to erase
Jude 1:9 that's fine, i'd agree with i
you this passage could be exactly that, what you stated. But this that is dealing with
Revelation 12:7-8 Does prove exactly what i'm saying, because once again "
it took Michael because Gabriel is just a messenger angel, it took the warrior angel just like in this case with Prince of Persia."
Then you said:QUOTE=Esaias
" You need to bring forward the Bible statements that teach. 4)that angels like Gabriel are inferior in power to some unnamed fallen angel and thus require help from an archangel in some kind of disembodied wrestling match."
To Which I said:QUOTE=1ofthechosen
"That's why it took Michael mentioned in the above case. Just as in the passage in
Daniel 10:13. " And I'll add to that "
Revelation 12:7-8 Does prove exactly what i'm saying, because once again "
it took Michael because Gabriel is just a messenger angel, it took the warrior angel just like in this case with Prince of Persia."
I only said it twice, because you asked the same question in essence twice. So you get the same reply.
Then you said: QUOTE: ESAIAS
"I PROVED FROM SCRIPTURE that "powers and principalities" are secular government offices, here I'll do it again in case your memory is short:
Titus 3:1 Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,
Now consider, who is this talking about
:
Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
Who are the "rulers of the darkness of this world"? Who are the "princes" that rule this world?
1 Corinthians 2:6-8 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: (7) But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (8) Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Neither demons nor fallen angels crucified Jesus, the Roman and Jewish political and religious leadership did."
To which I Say:
Which if you go above I said there was rulers of this world also. But the Bible also shows there is principalities of the spiritual realm as stated before. The Bible also teaches us there is evil, and even good principalities also; which are behind, principalities in this age, and of this world. I'll leave you with the end of
Ephesians 2:3 again "according to the
prince (which is short for principality)
of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience." So when we see "For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but
against principalities,
against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against
spiritual wickedness in high places." We can see in the same epistle what he explained about these exact things, and understand what he meant in Chapter 6, also.
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