Hair, sleeves, pantsuits, jewelry, and makeup

[Esaias]

A late Adventist scholar, Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D.,Retired Professor of Church History and Theology, Andrews University, mentions an observation from history:

John C. Wenger, a respected Mennonite historian, observed that not all the groups of Mennonites have been able to maintain a nonconformist attitude toward worldly fashions and practices. Both in Europe and in America, there are groups of Mennonites called "Progressive," who have gradually lost the sense of nonconformity to the world.
According to Wenger within such groups "much of the internal vigor" has disappeared as a result of the process of cultural conformity, especially in the areas of dress and jewelry. "They have allowed the process of cultural accommodation to go on with little or no resistance, sincerely believing that Christianity does not consist in outward forms, but they have often tended to underestimate the power of the forces in contemporary society to mold the members of the brotherhood into the same types of character, belief, and practice, as are current in America in general. This has resulted in a loss of sense of unique mission as well as the partial surrender of basic Mennonite doctrines. . . . They tend to become more like American Protestants than the Mennonites have historically been."27

(ENDTIME ISSUES No. 60:
Dress And Ornaments In Christian History) - http://www.giveshare.org/bacchiocchi...cchiocchi.html

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

A late Adventist scholar, Samuele Bacchiocchi, Ph. D.,Retired Professor of Church History and Theology, Andrews University, mentions an observation from history:

John C. Wenger, a respected Mennonite historian, observed that not all the groups of Mennonites have been able to maintain a nonconformist attitude toward worldly fashions and practices. Both in Europe and in America, there are groups of Mennonites called "Progressive," who have gradually lost the sense of nonconformity to the world.
According to Wenger within such groups "much of the internal vigor" has disappeared as a result of the process of cultural conformity, especially in the areas of dress and jewelry. "They have allowed the process of cultural accommodation to go on with little or no resistance, sincerely believing that Christianity does not consist in outward forms, but they have often tended to underestimate the power of the forces in contemporary society to mold the members of the brotherhood into the same types of character, belief, and practice, as are current in America in general. This has resulted in a loss of sense of unique mission as well as the partial surrender of basic Mennonite doctrines. . . . They tend to become more like American Protestants than the Mennonites have historically been."27

(ENDTIME ISSUES No. 60:
Dress And Ornaments In Christian History) - http://www.giveshare.org/bacchiocchi...cchiocchi.html

Esaias,

I want you to answer some questions for me, if you would.

Are the two statements that you refer to of Peter and Paul to be taken literally?

Are the two statements of Peter and Paul to be interpreted allegorically?

Please do your best to be objective.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Please explain how a woman can adorn herself with costly array, gold, silver, and plaited hair, while obeying the instruction to not adorn herself with costly array, gold, silver, and plaited hair.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Where again did you find in the New Testament a godly woman pictured decked with jewelry, et al?

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Esaias,

I want you to answer some questions for me, if you would.

Perhaps you could answer the two previous questions I had asked you first?

[JamesGlen]

Sincere question here. Why do folks avoid answering questions on this forum, by responding, “I asked you first?”

I don’t get that. If we are brethren, we are on the same team, why not just answer each others questions, so we can all learn and “grow up in him “together?

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Perhaps you could answer the two previous questions I had asked you first?

Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
“Please explain how a woman can adorn herself with costly array, gold, silver, and plaited hair, while obeying the instruction to not adorn herself with costly array, gold, silver, and plaited hair.”

Certainly. . . I thought I would allow you to answer your own questions. You do not seem to understand the difference between literal and allegorical. Perhaps I have given you too much credit.

The woman in the passage below is not really wearing good works Esaias. NOT physically and literally. I really did believe you understood that. Either you don’t understand, or you want to play dumb. Let me say, if it is really an act, you deserve an Oscar for your performance. So, I’ll play along.

1Timothy 2
[8] I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
[9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

What is she wearing you might ask? Shamefacedness and sobriety, and (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Is this what she is literally, physically, and naturally wearing? No!!! Of course not!!! We don’t know what she is covering her nakedness with. Because this scripture is NOT about that. It IS about her heart ♥️ 💜 ❤️!!!! (After all it is Valentine’s Day).

If you believe that this is about physical, literal clothing. Believe me it is NOT. It is NOT about jewelry, it is NOT about dresses. And it is NOT about braiding your hair (or NOT). It IS about the heart. That IS the point of the NOT in verse 9.
What Paul is trying to say is that this is NOT about regular clothing. Most people I think understand this. Some people don’t, usually because they don’t want to. Perhaps they have misunderstood this passage and preached it as literal for twenty years or more, so they get trapped by their own ego and don’t want to admit that they have been wrong.

How is that for an answer? Did I do good? Now on to the next question. Allow me to address this.

Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
“Where again did you find in the New Testament a godly woman pictured decked with jewelry, et al?”

I didn’t invent this game but I know a little bit about how to play it. This is my answer.

I can show you in the New Testament where men were swallowing camels. I can show you in the New Testament where women wore good works instead of clothing. I can show you in the New Testament where a people turned the world upside down, but I’m not sure if I can show you where a godly woman wore all of that.

I kind of understand what you’re trying to do here. You have not been able to find a scripture that prohibits jewelry or one that declares jewelry to be sinful. So you wanna forget about the several examples I have quoted from the OLD Testament where God obviously considered jewelry a blessing that He provided to His chosen people. All of a sudden, the Old Testament is no longer relevant. Okay. I get it.

Sooooo . . .

Please show me in the New Testament where a woman is wearing a dress. Please show me a prohibition in the New Testament where it is an abomination for a woman to wear that which pertaineth to a man. Please show me in the New Testament where . . . You get the point.

I’ll be waiting on your thoughtful, relevant and truthful answers.

[phareztamar]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
“Please explain how a woman can adorn herself with costly array, gold, silver, and plaited hair, while obeying the instruction to not adorn herself with costly array, gold, silver, and plaited hair.”

Certainly. . . I thought I would allow you to answer your own questions. You do not seem to understand the difference between literal and allegorical. Perhaps I have given you too much credit.

The woman in the passage below is not really wearing good works Esaias. NOT physically and literally. I really did believe you understood that. Either you don’t understand, or you want to play dumb. Let me say, if it is really an act, you deserve an Oscar for your performance. So, I’ll play along.

1Timothy 2
[8] I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
[9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

What is she wearing you might ask? Shamefacedness and sobriety, and (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Is this what she is literally, physically, and naturally wearing? No!!! Of course not!!! We don’t know what she is covering her nakedness with. Because this scripture is NOT about that. It IS about her heart ♥️ 💜 ❤️!!!! (After all it is Valentine’s Day).

If you believe that this is about physical, literal clothing. Believe me it is NOT. It is NOT about jewelry, it is NOT about dresses. And it is NOT about braiding your hair (or NOT). It IS about the heart. That IS the point of the NOT in verse 9.
What Paul is trying to say is that this is NOT about regular clothing. Most people I think understand this. Some people don’t, usually because they don’t want to. Perhaps they have misunderstood this passage and preached it as literal for twenty years or more, so they get trapped by their own ego and don’t want to admit that they have been wrong.

How is that for an answer? Did I do good? Now on to the next question. Allow me to address this.

Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
“Where again did you find in the New Testament a godly woman pictured decked with jewelry, et al?”

I didn’t invent this game but I know a little bit about how to play it. This is my answer.

I can show you in the New Testament where men were swallowing camels. I can show you in the New Testament where women wore good works instead of clothing. I can show you in the New Testament where a people turned the world upside down, but I’m not sure if I can show you where a godly woman wore all of that.

I kind of understand what you’re trying to do here. You have not been able to find a scripture that prohibits jewelry or one that declares jewelry to be sinful. So you wanna forget about the several examples I have quoted from the OLD Testament where God obviously considered jewelry a blessing that He provided to His chosen people. All of a sudden, the Old Testament is no longer relevant. Okay. I get it.

Sooooo . . .

Please show me in the New Testament where a woman is wearing a dress. Please show me a prohibition in the New Testament where it is an abomination for a woman to wear that which pertaineth to a man. Please show me in the New Testament where . . . You get the point.

I’ll be waiting on your thoughtful, relevant and truthful answers.

Stand by for an exocet missile in 3...2...1...

By the way Esaias, still studying the link and scriptures. Will get back to you asap.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Sincere question here. Why do folks avoid answering questions on this forum, by responding, “I asked you first?”

I don’t get that. If we are brethren, we are on the same team, why not just answer each others questions, so we can all learn and “grow up in him “together?

Because the majority of what is discussed isnt about truth...its about a game of "gotcha".

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by JamesGlen

Sincere question here. Why do folks avoid answering questions on this forum, by responding, “I asked you first?”

I don’t get that. If we are brethren, we are on the same team, why not just answer each others questions, so we can all learn and “grow up in him “together?

Because in a discussion, if both ask questions, but only one is answering, then it isn't really a discussion.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
“Please explain how a woman can adorn herself with costly array, gold, silver, and plaited hair, while obeying the instruction to not adorn herself with costly array, gold, silver, and plaited hair.”

Certainly. . . I thought I would allow you to answer your own questions. You do not seem to understand the difference between literal and allegorical. Perhaps I have given you too much credit.

The woman in the passage below is not really wearing good works Esaias. NOT physically and literally. I really did believe you understood that. Either you don’t understand, or you want to play dumb. Let me say, if it is really an act, you deserve an Oscar for your performance. So, I’ll play along.

1Timothy 2
[8] I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting.
[9] In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array;
[10] But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works.

What is she wearing you might ask? Shamefacedness and sobriety, and (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Is this what she is literally, physically, and naturally wearing? No!!! Of course not!!! We don’t know what she is covering her nakedness with. Because this scripture is NOT about that. It IS about her heart ♥️ 💜 ❤️!!!! (After all it is Valentine’s Day).

So Paul wasn't saying women should be clothed in modest apparel, then? Perhaps it is I who have been giving you too much credit...

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by phareztamar

Stand by for an exocet missile in 3...2...1...

SCUDs brought out of the mothballs will be plenty, as the target is hundreds of miles wide.

By the way Esaias, still studying the link and scriptures. Will get back to you asap.

I'm looking forward to it. I get bored with the hair/clothing threads pretty quickly.