Be Perfect Be Pure

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I'm truly shocked. We always seem to agree. :-)

So, 1 John 1.10 teaches that only liars deny that all people have sinned . . .
So I'm not a liar since I think all people do sin. 1 John is written to the church. Anything it says here about confession applies to us. So when you sin--even if it be ever so rare--you should confess it.

Regarding my request for a personal anecdote, since you apparently think people can and do live their entire life free from sin--they perfectly love God with their heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves--I am curious who these people are. I thought it would be interesting to first find out if you're one of these perfect ones. If not you, give me some examples. And how do you know they have been perfect? Their own testimony? Your observation of their life? It would seem unusual for it to be possible to live a perfect life at all times, but there be no examples. The only one without sin is the Lord Jesus Christ. He never needed to go to the throne of grace for his sin, because unlike all other human beings, he had no sin.

It makes sense that God would call us to such a lofty goal: we will keep pursuing more of God, never thinking we have arrived. Of course we will in fact attain the goal someday: when the Lord comes again and transforms our bodies to be like his glorious body.

Right next to Michael in his videos is the Lord's Prayer. Right next to his ear is the petition that our Lord has taught us to pray: Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Do you, or do you not, ever need to pray that?

I wanted to discuss what the Scriptures teach. You, on the other hand, want to discuss you, me, and everyone else. I don't think you are able to see the difference. Therefore, I am not going to pursue this any further with you. Nothing personal, no hard feelings, we just have two very different objectives here.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Costeon

I really respect this, Michael. I know we don't agree overall, but I admire your approach and willingness to thoroughly think through your position.

Thank you for this discussion.

When I said I embrace that now, I meant thats what I embrace already. Not sure if that was clear to you.

[Michael The Disciple]

Costean

Does the passage call the ones who are said to be dead "saints"? I don't see that. All the passages you list like this one and in the other posts (e.g., Ananias and Sapphira) involve people who are dead spiritually; they are not alive in true faith. You bring up extreme examples of people like Ananias and Sapphira that are irrelevant for a discussion about sincere believers who are seeking to live for Christ but who may fail in thought, word, or deed, from time to time.

So you are saying these people I mentioned were NEVER SAVED? That would be why you would call them "irrelevant" true?

Look again at the Sardis believers.

Rev. 3:1-2

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

The boldened tells us what we need to know. Why would Christ tell them to strengthen the things that remain? What things? Apparently Christ saw them as his people, but they were losing their walk with him.

The tares never had that. Only the saved.

Jesus said WHAT THEY HAD was ready to die. If they were never saved this makes no sense at all.

Then also why would Jesus reprove them if their works were not perfect? Would the Lord Jesus Christ expect tares to have perfect works toward him? Of course not.

Verses 3-4

3Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee. 4Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.

If they were never saved why did Jesus tell them to HOLD FAST? Unto what were they holding if not what they had already heard and received?

Did not the Lord say they had DEFILED THEIR GARMENTS?

This alone should prove they had once been saved. They had garments. But they had DEFILED THEM. Only the few in Sardis who had NOT defiled theirs were worthy of a walk with him.

Verse 5

5He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

This shows that ONLY OVERCOMERS will ultimately be saved. All else, those who were NOT overcomers, those who had defiled their garments, those whose works were not perfect would be blotted out of the book of life.

So their names were in the book. But unless they repented they would not remain in it.

Now those you mentioned that were seeking to walk with him but failed from time to time THEY are the ones Christ is trying to reach in the warning in Revelation.

They are not tares. They are saints who are allowing sin to come and go in their lives. Now if and when they repent of the sins they are forgiven. But take serious note Jesus CALLS THEM to repentance.

The few that had NOT DEFILED their garments in Sardis were where they should be with Jesus. He says THEY are worthy to walk with him. It is THEY whose names will not be blotted out.

See the difference? All these people were saved. But not all would REMAIN SAVED unless there was repentance. Unless their works were made perfect.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

Thank you for the straightforward answer. I just wanted to make sure I definitely understood your view. Now I think I do. You are saved as long as you perfectly obey. You are lost the moment you do not perfectly obey--say you have a sinful thought toward someone here on AFF :-)--and remain lost until you repent. Your salvation is entirely based on your efforts at and success in obeying. This is not an attack on your view or disparaging it. I'm just trying to state it accurately.

What I think I am confused about now is that it seemed you were disagreeing with Michael at the beginning of this thread, but it seems his view of perfection and your view of maturity are identical.

Not identical, because I see the Apostle explains three groups children, young men, and elders. There is room for growth. Yet your position is still based on your own personal behavior in your religious experience. Bible is presented to you that is very clear to anyone. Yet it is never actually explained by you. You just give me your personal life experience in your religious walk. It’s like this, not saying this is you, yet if a Christian husband lusts after other women, and has done this his whole time in church. He sets that as a standard issue for every guy in the church. Yet, that isn’t factually correct. The whole Calvinist sinful thought popping up in your head argument can’t be broad brushed across everyone. Because even in the secular world it isn’t so. My atheist father believed that all religious people were mental cripples. The Calvinist “sinful thought” argument is what caused him to believe that way. My father pointed out that if these so called pious individuals had thoughts to rape your sister from time to time? Then they were hypocrites, who just donned the saffron robes to be seen of men. But my dad thought that of everyone who lit a candle, or carried religious parchment. Calvinism just did an amazing job in solidifying my father’s view that Christians were hypocrites. But to answer you, how you think is actually who you really are. It isn’t in front of us where you need to perform. It is behind or backs where we need to trust you. God is invisible, we can’t see Him. But while the pagan understood that, he also had an image to worry about. Idols, all around, angry, mean looking idols. Burned into his mind. So while he behaved himself to some degree, he really straightened up when an idol was around. We don’t worship idols. Our God is alive, and when we don’t believe that our thoughts follow accordingly. Who you are in the dark is really the real you.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I wanted to discuss what the Scriptures teach. You, on the other hand, want to discuss you, me, and everyone else. I don't think you are able to see the difference. Therefore, I am not going to pursue this any further with you. Nothing personal, no hard feelings, we just have two very different objectives here.

Costeon, this is my take away also. You want to discuss you. While every man’s perception may be his own personal realty. It isn’t how we should build doctrine. John Calvin used philosophy to build his teachings, as his students still do today.
Whether or not you can tie your shoelaces doesn’t mean we all must wear loafers. You were presented clear verses which you chose to ignore. I asked you to explain certain verses to me, you flatlined. I can only deduce that you are acting this way because of some sort of religious struggle within yourself? Whether or not we are sinning or saints the book still shows one view. Sin you die, repent you live. Sin you are a child of Satan, live without sin you are a son of God. I guess it is just easier to get a big group together if everyone can have sinfilled thoughts but still look pious to everyone else? What did Jesus call that? White washed tombs filled with dead men’s bones?

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Costeon, this is my take away also. You want to discuss you. While every man’s perception may be his own personal realty. It isn’t how we should build doctrine. John Calvin used philosophy to build his teachings, as his students still do today.
Whether or not you can tie your shoelaces doesn’t mean we all must wear loafers. You were presented clear verses which you chose to ignore. I asked you to explain certain verses to me, you flatlined. I can only deduce that you are acting this way because of some sort of religious struggle within yourself? Whether or not we are sinning or saints the book still shows one view. Sin you die, repent you live. Sin you are a child of Satan, live without sin you are a son of God. I guess it is just easier to get a big group together if everyone can have sinfilled thoughts but still look pious to everyone else? What did Jesus call that? White washed tombs filled with dead men’s bones?

Alas, Evang.Benincasa, I don't have an unlimited amount of time to answer in a timely manner every single question that is asked of me or respond to every assertion made about me and my motives. I'm focused on Michael's posts because it's his thread. As I have time, I will respond. But the fact is, it is generally unproductive to go round and round on the interpretation of particular verses. I really doubt, for example, that you are ever in doubt on the meaning of verses that you post. That's not a slam on you. It's just that most people that post on this forum seem pretty confident that their view is correct.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Costeon

Alas, Evang.Benincasa, I don't have an unlimited amount of time to answer in a timely manner every single question that is asked of me or respond to every assertion made about me and my motives. I'm focused on Michael's posts because it's his thread. As I have time, I will respond. But the fact is, it is generally unproductive to go round and round on the interpretation of particular verses. I really doubt, for example, that you are ever in doubt on the meaning of verses that you post. That's not a slam on you. It's just that most people that post on this forum seem pretty confident that their view is correct.

Of course they believe their view is correct. But, still you even in the time it took you to type this post. You could of answered me with an explanation of the verses. I have given you my thoughts with scripture explanation. You just tell us that you have sinful thoughts from time to time so you believe it to be common to everyone. It could be the company you keep? I don’t know, but the others and myself aren’t asking you to explain the New Testament doctrine through your own religious experiences. But just asking you to explain very clear verses which say you are lost if you continue in sin hoping that grace will abound. He who sins is of the devil? Means if you are having sinful thoughts it is not God breathed, but Satanically focused. 1 John 3:7 what is it saying? Can you be as righteous as Jesus Christ? Or am I missing the meaning of this verse?

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I wanted to discuss what the Scriptures teach. You, on the other hand, want to discuss you, me, and everyone else. I don't think you are able to see the difference. Therefore, I am not going to pursue this any further with you. Nothing personal, no hard feelings, we just have two very different objectives here.

Hahaha! "Nothing personal, Costeon, but I'm going to make it personal and insult you and your inability to discuss Scripture."

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Can you be as righteous as Jesus Christ? Or am I missing the meaning of this verse?

I know that as I've read your posts over the last year or so, I have always thought, "Now Evang really does seem Christlike in his responses. He is always so humble and patient and kind in his interaction with others. He is a model of good Christian behavior."

One reason I'm interested in your (and others') personal experience is that you have asserted your own righteousness very clearly, but this righteousness--even perfection--is never quite fully on display in your actual behavior on this forum. So I was thinking that if those who assert their perfection and maturity would let that be clearly seen on this forum, I would be able to look at them and think, "So perfection really is possible and so their views must be correct."

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I can only deduce that you are acting this way because of some sort of religious struggle within yourself? Whether or not we are sinning or saints the book still shows one view. Sin you die, repent you live. Sin you are a child of Satan, live without sin you are a son of God. I guess it is just easier to get a big group together if everyone can have sinfilled thoughts but still look pious to everyone else? What did Jesus call that? White washed tombs filled with dead men’s bones?

It really is fascinating to get a peek inside the mind of someone who is so confident of his own goodness. What is even more fascinating is that you (and a couple of others) won't even simply answer the question on whether or not you ever sin, say, have a sinful attitude or thought. You truly think you are perfect. It's incredibly interesting.