UPC doctrinal contradiction

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Sam

Sad, that he proclaims all that truth about justification by faith and then has to go and create his own definition of faith and say it means obedience or doing certain works so it can fit in with the UPC performance based religion.

Are you saying obedience has nothing to do with salvation?

[Truthseeker]

Didn't james teach by works is a man justified as Abraham?

[OilCityCajun]

So were James and Paul at loggerheads? Or did they have a deeper understanding that faith inspires works and works are the evidence of faith?

[johnny44]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Christ did not distinguish remission of sins from repentance. He distinguished the word repentance from the word remission/forgiveness. They are two different words, like gun and bullet are, but it takes a gun to shoot a bullet

It takes a shell,powder and the bullet for it to be effective.

[Sam]

[QUOTE=Jason Badejo;937738]
...
Justification comes freely. It comes through faith, not works or legal obedience. Justification is not merited, earned, or deserved. The source of justification is the grace of God. pg.89
...
/QUOTE]

That's actually on page 90, the last full paragraph near the bottom of the page in the copy of the book that I have. Bro. Bernard concludes the paragraph with:
"Grace is the unmerited favor of God towards men."

[Sam]

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

So were James and Paul at loggerheads? Or did they have a deeper understanding that faith inspires works and works are the evidence of faith?

In my opinion
"Faith without works" in Romans is from God's aspect because He can see our faith in our heart. And, when we have that faith He instantly justifies us apart from any works which we may do. I think that's what Paul is talking about when he says that Abram was justified/made righteous at the moment he believed God.

"Works which display or prove faith" is from man's aspect because we can't see faith in people's hearts. We can only see the outward manifestation of it. Someone may claim faith in God but if it doesn't show up in his/her actions we figure it is only "head faith" and not "heart faith."

[Sam]

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

So were James and Paul at loggerheads? Or did they have a deeper understanding that faith inspires works and works are the evidence of faith?

This is from pages 99 - 100 of James: Faith at Work, A Commentary by Daniel Segraves, copyright 1995 by Word Aflame Press

Expressing continuing concern for merciful treatment of
the poor (verses 15-17), James uses two radically diverse
examples, Abraham and Rahab, to show that genuine faith
results in concrete demonstrations of compassion for others.
In so doing, the letter dramatically illustrates that doctrinal
purity alone is merely dead orthodoxy (verses 19-20).
...

1. Rhetorical Question (2:14)
Verse 14. The stark question, “Can faith save [apart from
works],” with its understood negative answer has caused
some to think that James contradicts Paul’s emphasis on salvation
by grace through faith and not by works. (See Ephesians
2:8-9; Romans 4:2, 6; 9:32; 11:6; Galatians 2:16;

3:2, 5; II Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5; Hebrews 4:10.) But God
inspired both authors, and the resulting Scripture contains
no contradictions. The problem is solved when we
realize that words are defined by their context. Paul used
“works” in a negative way to describe activity done, not
from a basis of genuine faith, but from a vain attempt to
earn favor with God and thus to merit or deserve salvation.
(See Romans 9:32.) By contrast, James used
“works” to mean the natural result of genuine faith in God
(2:21-26).

Paul and James also used the word “faith” differently.
In Paul’s writings, faith is a vibrant, active belief in God
that dramatically alters one’s behavior (Romans 4:12;
14:23; 16:26; I Corinthians 16:13; II Corinthians 4:13;
Galatians 2:20; 5:6; Philippians 2:17; I Thessalonians
1:3; I Timothy 6:12). In the context of James, it is mere
mental assent to the facts of Christian doctrine without a
behavior-transforming abandonment of one’s life to the
Person described by those doctrines (2:17-20, 26).

From the viewpoint of James, words are cheap. A person
can say he has faith, but there is no value to his confession
if it is not accompanied by practical expressions
of obedience to God (2:21-24) and concern for others
(2:15-17, 25). Such “faith” is not salvific. Truly, it is not
genuine faith, but “dead” faith (2:26).

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Didn't james teach by works is a man justified as Abraham?

no James taught works evidence faith

Jas 2:14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him?
Jas 2:15 If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food,
Jas 2:16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and filled," without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that?
Jas 2:17 So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.
Jas 2:18 But someone will say, "You have faith and I have works." Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

[Arphaxad]

Originally Posted by johnny44

It takes a shell,powder and the bullet for it to be effective.

and a firing pin, trigger and finger for the gun

[ManOfWord]

The problem with the UPCI on this issue is that they have their own definitions of "faith", "justification" & "sanctification." They can use the words because they are familiar theological terms. However, when they get right down to defining them, they don't mean what most everyone else thinks they mean. No matter how they slice it, at least as far as DKB is concerned, one is not rapture ready until AFTER one has spoken with tongues. It doesn't matter how much one's life has changed. It doesn't matter how much one has surrendered their life to Jesus Christ. If they're not baptized in Jesus' name AND spoke in tongues, they're not going to heaven.

They use the terms to try to fit in with others but when it gets down to it, the terms mean absolutely nothing because of the definitions the UPCI holds.