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  #241  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:28 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
BUT of THAT day.................

Pronoun/Antecedent rule. "That day" is the day he had just described in verses 29-31.
Nails it.
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  #242  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:46 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by n david View Post
"rejected of the Lord," "rebelling against the word of God," "rejecting the truth," "I fear for their souls."

Doesn't sound as though you believe anything but damnation for those who don't believe as you believe.


I don't believe so. My offence is that you and Esaias are damning good people to hell over something which is not salvific. You two are no different than the ultra cons who blast people to hell for short sleeves or colored shirts.

My father is one of the "heretics" Esaias is damning to hell for his belief in pre-trib rapture. My father has been a faithful minister of the Gospel for 60 years this year. I may not agree with him on some issues, but I do not question his salvation because I know the man and have seen his walk with God.

And it's not just my father, but other great elders and ministers who have either already passed or are not likely here much longer. Urshan. Tenney. Mangun. Becton. Ewing. Cole. Barnes. And many others.

So yes, I am offended at the LIE you and Esaias are pushing that those who believe in pre-Trib are heretics and going to hell.
Just like how others get offended about the idea Grandma Trinitarian may not make it either. Or Grandpa "Eaten by cannibals in Zimbabwe while preaching Jesus to the natives", whose funeral was held at St. Peter Paul and Mary's Roman Catholic Church in Brooklyn.

When people are faced with the fact that heresies are DAMNABLE, they always revert to works based legalistic salvation schemes in order to squeeze Uncle Harry the Unitarian Universalist into the pearly gates.

I already proved the case:

1. Heresies are damnable.

2. Pre trib rapture teaching is a heresy.

3. Therefore, pre trib rapture teaching is a damnable heresy.

If someone would like to take a stab at proving, FROM THE BIBLE, that "it doesn't matter what you believe as long as you agree with the UPCI Unity Statement", they are more than welcome to go for it.
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Last edited by Esaias; 11-20-2017 at 05:55 PM. Reason: to not offend Sicilians
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  #243  
Old 11-20-2017, 05:53 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
2 Thessalonians 2:1-8 KJV (1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, (2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; (4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. (5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? (6) And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. (7) For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (8) And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
The subject is the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him. This is unquestionably what "the rapture" concept is about - the return of the Lord and our being gathered together with Him.

That day is not "at hand", meaning it is NOT IMMINENT. Pre trib rapture heresy claims the rapture is an "imminent" event, meaning it could happen AT ANY TIME.

That day shall NOT COME until and except there is FIRST the "apostasy" and the rise of the "man of sin". Furthermore, the "man of sin" is to be revealed BEFORE that day of the Lord's coming and our gathering together with Him takes place.

The man of sin is DESTROYED by the COMING OF THE LORD. There is obviously one coming of the Lord being discussed in this chapter, and it includes "our gathering together with Him". Thus, the pre trib nonsense about "first the rapture, then the visible coming of the Lord" is just that - nonsense.

The pre trib rapture heresy teaches that the Lord comes, and we are gathered together with Him, BEFORE the man of sin is on the scene. Furthermore, it teaches that we are gathered together to the Lord at some event OTHER than the coming of the Lord in which the man of sin is destroyed. Both of which are in direct contradiction to the plain and unambiguous statements of the apostle.

This is apostolic doctrine, as taught by an apostle. Pre trib rapture doctrine is NOT APOSTOLIC. It is no more apostolic than trinity idolatry, easy believism, sinner's prayerism, sprinkling, confession to a priest, or kissing the pope's ring.
The reason I have been copy and pasting my previous statements, is because certain people here seem to think that by blasting the thread with one liners and repetitions of the same old tired and long ago refuted claims they are somehow "proving their case".

This passage above, in the quote block, utterly and totally refutes pre-trib rapture teaching. There is no way around it. The only thing the rapture cultists can do is what they DO do: distract by "Look over here! Look over there! Look over anywhere!" They avoid the simple statements of Scripture.

The apostle addressed the question of the TIMING, the TIME TABLE of the man of sin, his rise, career, and his destruction, IN CONJUNCTION WITH the coming of the Lord AND OUR GATHERING TOGETHER WITH HIM. This passage is THE APOSTOLIC ANSWER to "the rapture timing question."

It cannot be any plainer. The apostle may as well have said "Pre trib, mid trib, and pre wrath are wrong."

And yet the cultists still won't believe it. Why?

DAMNABLE HERESY. It's a "strong delusion". How else can you explain the utter refusal to submit to the plain words of the BIBLE? This doesn't require arcane "interpretations", Josephus or Gibbon are not needed, neither is Darby or Scofield.

THAT DAY SHALL NOT COME until certain things happen. Pre trib rapture teaching claims "those things shall not happen until the coming of the Lord Jesus and our gathering together with Him takes place first."

Trinity has more going for it than pre trib. And that's not saying much.
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  #244  
Old 11-20-2017, 06:13 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 (20) But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. (21) For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. (22) For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. (23) But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
Another text which utterly renders pre trib, mid trib, and "pre wrath" rapture doctrines as totally impossible. Again, this is discussing the ORDER OF RESURRECTIONS.
Christ first, THEN AFTERWARDS THEY THAT ARE CHRIST'S AT HIS COMING.

Those who belong to Christ are resurrected AT HIS COMING. Not at anytime prior to His coming, but AT HIS COMING.

Oh wait a minute...

And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
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  #245  
Old 11-20-2017, 06:27 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Right, the firstfuits are who?



James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.



Right, all the saints during the Church age are Christs' firstfruits.


Then THEY(dead trib saints) that are Christs at his coming.


Then cometh the end.....(Millennial)

Last edited by Sean; 11-20-2017 at 06:31 PM.
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  #246  
Old 11-20-2017, 06:30 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Pope Esaias.....



Quote:
1. Heresies are damnable.

2. Pre trib rapture teaching is a heresy.

3. Therefore, pre trib rapture teaching is a damnable heresy.


Buncha blankety blank pre-tribbers!




LOL
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  #247  
Old 11-20-2017, 06:32 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Right, the firstfuits are who?



James 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.



Right, all the saints during the Church age are Christs' firstfruits.


Then THEY(dead trib saints) that are Christs at his coming.


Then cometh the end.....(Millennial)
See what I mean people?

Paul specifically said "Christ the firstfruits..." and yet now we have Mr Pre trib rapture specialist with his distraction - "the saints are called firstfruits so that's what Paul meant!"

There is no need to "debate" with these people, it's like debating a Jehovah (false)Witness. Logic need not apply. They simply believe what they believe and that's that.

Strong delusion.
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  #248  
Old 11-20-2017, 06:33 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

And now comes a page of stupid one liners and off topic posts in 3.... 2.... 1....
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  #249  
Old 11-20-2017, 06:39 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.



Example of(soon to be) dead(Jewish) saints that are Christs at His coming.
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  #250  
Old 11-20-2017, 06:40 PM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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See what I mean people?

Paul specifically said "Christ the firstfruits..." and yet now we have Mr Pre trib rapture specialist with his distraction - "the saints are called firstfruits so that's what Paul meant!"

There is no need to "debate" with these people, it's like debating a Jehovah (false)Witness. Logic need not apply. They simply believe what they believe and that's that.

Strong delusion.
Esaias just called James 1:18 JW-ish.


He knows I am right, that he(Esaias) is one of Christs firstfruits.
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