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  #181  
Old 10-22-2020, 03:21 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Have you ever lost confidence in leadership?

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You do know I'm your friend? I didn't call you a Baptist. I said it is Baptist theology that we can't be saved independently outside of the government of God.





Bro, grace made it possible for Adam and Eve to leave the garden, and grace made it possible to enter back in through Christ. Grace we are saved, but we are judged by our works.
But our righteous works are fruit of righteousness, not a means to righteousness.
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  #182  
Old 10-22-2020, 05:58 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Have you ever lost confidence in leadership?

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But our righteous works are fruit of righteousness, not a means to righteousness.
Yes, and a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Surprisingly there are a lot who believe that they are part of the Body, but yet are only an eye. 1st Corinthians 12 spells at that there are different offices within the Body of Christ. In order to see fruit become ripe one must be part of a church family with elders.
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  #183  
Old 10-22-2020, 06:12 PM
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Re: Have you ever lost confidence in leadership?

Livestream church family.?
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  #184  
Old 10-22-2020, 06:25 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is online now
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Re: Have you ever lost confidence in leadership?

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Here, knowing God is proven by adherence to apostolic doctrine, faith and practice. Lack of such adherence is considered by the apostle to be proof of being lost and of the world.
And since this is true another question can be asked about the modern Churches.

Can one attend Church and be saved?

How MUCH of the Apostolic Faith must must be believed, practiced, and adhered to to be a part of the body of Christ?

If one is attending a local Church that teaches EVERYTHING wrong except, lets say Acts 2:38 should they feel safe? Are they?

Im all in when it comes to the local Church and loving the brethren. Nonetheless in the day in which we live it is very difficult to find such a Church
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  #185  
Old 10-23-2020, 09:17 AM
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Nicodemus1968 Nicodemus1968 is online now
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Re: Have you ever lost confidence in leadership?

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Good post.

Just to give you an update of the point being discussed, Nico asked the question to somebody going against tithing: "can you be saved without a pastor?".

The whole point of the rhetorical question was to, again, exalt the role of the single pastor as mediator of your salvation, and justify the salary funding via tithing.

The answered Originalist gave was an oversimplified answer to a dumb question: no.
Why is that a dumb question?

How is my question about needing a Pastor or not, trying to justify his need for tithing? I’m trying to exhaust the roll of a single Pastor as mediator for salvation??? You’re correct about dumb, its just the other way around.

Needing a Pastor or not goes in line with the topic of discussion. If you lost confidence in the leadership, can you become your own Pastor? Do you need a Pastor to be saved?
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  #186  
Old 10-23-2020, 11:10 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Have you ever lost confidence in leadership?

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Yes, and a good tree cannot produce bad fruit. Surprisingly there are a lot who believe that they are part of the Body, but yet are only an eye. 1st Corinthians 12 spells at that there are different offices within the Body of Christ. In order to see fruit become ripe one must be part of a church family with elders.
As long as it is understood that unconventional ways of fulfilling all of that are fine.
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  #187  
Old 10-23-2020, 01:51 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Have you ever lost confidence in leadership?

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As long as it is understood that unconventional ways of fulfilling all of that are fine.
Unconventional ways? You do know how incredibly strange that sounds? What do you mean by unconventional? I find it bizarre that people believe the more they get away from what they once attended, is to practice a “new” form of Christianity. They some how are doing things more like the Apostles intended? Sadly enough ( no matter how politically conservative ) Christian usually follow closely with the culture around them. So, are those who practice “conventionally” are they fulfilling the plan of the Apostle?
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  #188  
Old 10-23-2020, 04:03 PM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Have you ever lost confidence in leadership?

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Unconventional ways? You do know how incredibly strange that sounds? What do you mean by unconventional? I find it bizarre that people believe the more they get away from what they once attended, is to practice a “new” form of Christianity. They some how are doing things more like the Apostles intended? Sadly enough ( no matter how politically conservative ) Christian usually follow closely with the culture around them. So, are those who practice “conventionally” are they fulfilling the plan of the Apostle?
You jump to conclusions quite a bit. You ask me what I mean by unconventional, and then answer the question on my behalf essentially.
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  #189  
Old 10-23-2020, 10:04 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Have you ever lost confidence in leadership?

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You jump to conclusions quite a bit. You ask me what I mean by unconventional, and then answer the question on my behalf essentially.
I gave my thoughts on the subject of ecclesiastically unconventional. But it was up to you to answer the question.
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  #190  
Old 10-23-2020, 10:35 PM
Tithesmeister Tithesmeister is offline
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Re: Have you ever lost confidence in leadership?

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Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968 View Post
Why is that a dumb question?

How is my question about needing a Pastor or not, trying to justify his need for tithing? I’m trying to exhaust the roll of a single Pastor as mediator for salvation??? You’re correct about dumb, its just the other way around.

Needing a Pastor or not goes in line with the topic of discussion. If you lost confidence in the leadership, can you become your own Pastor? Do you need a Pastor to be saved?
Ephesians 4
[11] And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
[12] For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

Brother Nicodemus,
This is the lone mention of pastor in the KJV New Testament. As I have said, God gave pastors (plural) to the church. If you notice the purpose of the gift was to aid (with others: teachers, evangelists, prophets, and apostles) in the perfecting of the saints. The perfecting of whom? The saints.


So the answer to your question, “Can you be saved without a pastor?” lies in this verse. Are saints saved? I believe they are! But the pastors, as well as the other ministers are for the perfecting (some would say maturing) of the saints. If they are saints, they are already saved, wouldn’t you agree?

Have you ever asked if you can be saved without an evangelist? Prophet? What about a teacher? Why the focus on only one facet of the five-fold ministry?

I’m just asking to try and get you to think, not to provoke an argument.
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