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  #11  
Old 04-05-2022, 01:56 AM
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Re: "With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
Many preaching and songs have been preached and sung referring to the "Holy Ghost and fire" or "fire come down", however, ...

Let's read these verses and within the context. What you do think "fire" in "with the Holy Ghost and with fire" refers to?

[Mat 3:9-12 KJV] 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: 12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.
[Luk 3:16-18 KJV] 16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: 17 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. 18 And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.
Correct hermeneutics requires a proper understanding of the language first. So, the Greek text preaches the meaning. If the underlying text is unequivocal in meaning and cannot be translated or interpreted any other way but one, then any other conjecture on the matter is immaterial.

The Greek text for Matthew 3:11 and Luke 3:16 are identical to each other:

See:https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/3-11.htm
See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/3-16.htm

The phrase in question, as it pertains to the original question regarding "fire", is as follows:

αὐτὸς ὑμᾶς βαπτίσει ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί

autos hymas baptisei en pneumati hagio kai pyri

The verb βαπτίσει (baptisei) is in the future indicative active, third person singular. The nouns Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ (pneumati hagio) and πυρί (pyri) are all in the dative neuter singular.

The subject of the phrase is Jesus (i.e. "He" or αὐτὸς (autos).

The direct object of the verb, meaning the object which receives the action of the verb, is ὑμᾶς (hymas), that is, "you", hence the accusative case.

That means John was telling his audience that they would be the recipients of the direct action of being baptized by Jesus. As indirect objects (i.e. the dative case), the Holy Spirit and the fire are the recipients of the object being given to them in baptism (i.e. the person being so immersed), as the action of the verb is completed.

What does this all mean?

It means that there are not two separate baptisms here, one of Spirit, for the believer, as an act of saving grace, and one of fire, for the unbeliever, as an act of damning judgment.

It is the believer, the one who accepted John's baptism, and would then eventually follow Jesus as Christ and Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world, who would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

It might then best be argued that καὶ (kai) here ought to be understood as something like "even", or "that is to say", or possibly "as well as" so the phrase could read:

1.) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, even with fire".

2.) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, that is to say, with fire".

3.) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, as well as, with fire".

In all three instances, the meaning is equivalent. Either the Spirit is the fire, and vice versa (and clearly then, a metaphor), or the fire, whatever it might be, attends and accompanies the Spirit, and vice versa.

But in no case should it be thought that they ought to be separated into two camps, that one camp receives the Spirit, and another camp receives the fire.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 04-05-2022 at 01:58 AM.
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Old 04-05-2022, 02:04 AM
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Re: "With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Correct hermeneutics requires a proper understanding of the language first. So, the Greek text preaches the meaning. If the underlying text is unequivocal in meaning and cannot be translated or interpreted any other way but one, then any other conjecture on the matter is immaterial.

The Greek text for Matthew 3:11 and Luke 3:16 are identical to each other:

See:https://biblehub.com/interlinear/matthew/3-11.htm
See: https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/3-16.htm

The phrase in question, as it pertains to the original question regarding "fire", is as follows:

αὐτὸς ὑμᾶς βαπτίσει ἐν Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ καὶ πυρί

autos hymas baptisei en pneumati hagio kai pyri

The verb βαπτίσει (baptisei) is in the future indicative active, third person singular. The nouns Πνεύματι Ἁγίῳ (pneumati hagio) and πυρί (pyri) are all in the dative neuter singular.

The subject of the phrase is Jesus (i.e. "He" or αὐτὸς (autos).

The direct object of the verb, meaning the object which receives the action of the verb, is ὑμᾶς (hymas), that is, "you", hence the accusative case.

That means John was telling his audience that they would be the recipients of the direct action of being baptized by Jesus. As indirect objects (i.e. the dative case), the Holy Spirit and the fire are the recipients of the object being given to them in baptism (i.e. the person being so immersed), as the action of the verb is completed.

What does this all mean?

It means that there are not two separate baptisms here, one of Spirit, for the believer, as an act of saving grace, and one of fire, for the unbeliever, as an act of damning judgment.

It is the believer, the one who accepted John's baptism, and would then eventually follow Jesus as Christ and Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world, who would be baptized with the Holy Spirit and with fire.

It might then best be argued that καὶ (kai) here ought to be understood as something like "even", or "that is to say", or possibly "as well as" so the phrase could read:

1.) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, even with fire".

2.) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, that is to say, with fire".

3.) "He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, as well as, with fire".

In all three instances, the meaning is equivalent. Either the Spirit is the fire, and vice versa (and clearly then, a metaphor), or the fire, whatever it might be, attends and accompanies the Spirit, and vice versa.

But in no case should it be thought that they ought to be separated into two camps, that one camp receives the Spirit, and another camp receives the fire.
That all being said, what then is the fire?

I submit it's the same fire that fell on the altar when the Tabernacle was dedicated to God (See, e.g. Leviticus 9:24). The animal sacrifice was killed and prepared for burning according to the command. The priest placed the carcass and it's particular pieces upon the altar, and God sent the fire to consume the flesh.

The fire then of the phrase "with the Holy Spirit and with fire" is the fire that accepts the sacrifice and consumes the flesh. God is Spirit (John 4:24). Our God is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3, and Hebrews 12:29).
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Old 04-05-2022, 02:23 AM
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Re: "With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
That all being said, what then is the fire?

I submit it's the same fire that fell on the altar when the Tabernacle was dedicated to God (See, e.g. Leviticus 9:24). The animal sacrifice was killed and prepared for burning according to the command. The priest placed the carcass and it's particular pieces upon the altar, and God sent the fire to consume the flesh.

The fire then of the phrase "with the Holy Spirit and with fire" is the fire that accepts the sacrifice and consumes the flesh. God is Spirit (John 4:24). Our God is a consuming fire (Deuteronomy 4:24, 9:3, and Hebrews 12:29).
Thank you Votive!
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Old 04-05-2022, 01:36 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: "With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

votivesoul,

Those are good points. However, "kai' can be translated as well as "and". It is also part of the semantic range. The words meaning are determined by their context. The context is already giving to the passage its meaning. You can't just give meanings and interpret the phrase in isolation with the context, otherwise you are falling into fallacies. Those same rules apply to every language, not just Greek.

The context indicates a imminent judgment bringing separation, and fire is used in the context twice already associated with judgment. It make sense to assume that "kai" means "and", and "fire" means a metaphor for judgment.


Quote:
Full Semantic Range Fallacy: Also known as illegitimate totality transfer, this occurs when a person imposes a significant portion or a totality of the word semantic range into a single context.

Common Priority Fallacy: This occurs when a person gives the most common usage of a word priority over its less common usage(s).

Root Fallacy: This is the assertion that the meaning of a word is a conglomeration of its morphological parts or constrained by its etymological root.

Exegetical Distinction Fallacy: The presupposition that the biblical writer is always intending heightened theological distinctions between different words.
Semantic range of kai:
Strong: καί kaí, kahee; apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:—and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.

The full semantic range with lots of details are in Bauer's or Thayer's lexicon. I have both of them, and I see "and" as a perfectly valid translation when the context indicates so. There is no one single meaning for kai, or even one single translation.

When it comes to Word Study, there are three rules: context, context, and context.

Last edited by coksiw; 04-05-2022 at 01:56 PM.
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Old 04-05-2022, 02:05 PM
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Re: "With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
votivesoul,

Those are good points. However, "kai' can be translated as well as "and". It is also part of the semantic range. The words meaning are determined by their context. The context is already giving to the passage its meaning. You can't just give meanings and interpret the phrase in isolation with the context, otherwise you are falling into fallacies. Those same rules apply to every language, not just Greek.

The context indicates a imminent judgment bringing separation, and fire is used in the context twice already associated with judgment. It make sense to assume that "kai" means "and", and "fire" means a metaphor for judgment.
It can be both. The Holy Spirit is the operative presence of God. The fire, representing judgment, can be likewise the operative presence of God:

Psalm 68:1-3 KJV
Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. [2] As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. [3] But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Here, the manifesting presence of God does two things - it destroys His enemies as if by fire, while bringing gladness and rejoicing to God's people. This dual concept of the presence of God bringing both life and victory to the saints as well as judgment and destruction to the wicked is expressed elsewhere:

Daniel 7:9-11,13-14,23-27 KJV
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. [10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. [11] I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. [13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. [23] Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. [24] And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. [25] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [26] But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. [27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Here the river of fire (Daniel's version of the lake of fire) destroys God's enemies so that the saints may be victorious.

Again:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 KJV
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

And again:

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 KJV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In both passages the coming of the Lord brings rest to the saints but destruction to the enemies. The same event is experienced differently depending on which class a participant is.

Again:

Hebrews 12:28-29 KJV
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.

God is a consuming fire that destroys the wicked, yet His presence is Life and health to His people. Paul noted this:

2 Corinthians 2:14-16 KJV
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. [15] For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: [16] To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

The aroma is the same, but perceived differently by them that are saved and them that perish. To one we are an aroma of life that leads to life, but to the other we are the aroma of death that leads to death. The presence of God is sweet to His people, but the same presence is death and hell to those in opposition to Him.

Isaiah 33:14-17 KJV
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? [15] He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; [16] He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. [17] Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

The question is who will dwell with the everlasting flame? The answer is the righteous, because the same fire of God's presence that the righteous shall enjoy consumes and destroys the wicked.

So Israel being baptised with the Holy Spirit and fire speaks to the saints receiving the fiery presence of God, as well as the wicked being judged and destroyed by that same presence.
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Old 04-05-2022, 10:59 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: "With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
It can be both. The Holy Spirit is the operative presence of God. The fire, representing judgment, can be likewise the operative presence of God:

Psalm 68:1-3 KJV
Let God arise, let his enemies be scattered: let them also that hate him flee before him. [2] As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God. [3] But let the righteous be glad; let them rejoice before God: yea, let them exceedingly rejoice.

Here, the manifesting presence of God does two things - it destroys His enemies as if by fire, while bringing gladness and rejoicing to God's people. This dual concept of the presence of God bringing both life and victory to the saints as well as judgment and destruction to the wicked is expressed elsewhere:

Daniel 7:9-11,13-14,23-27 KJV
I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. [10] A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened. [11] I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. [13] I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. [14] And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. [23] Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces. [24] And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings. [25] And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time. [26] But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end. [27] And the kingdom and dominion, and the greatness of the kingdom under the whole heaven, shall be given to the people of the saints of the most High, whose kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and all dominions shall serve and obey him.

Here the river of fire (Daniel's version of the lake of fire) destroys God's enemies so that the saints may be victorious.

Again:

2 Thessalonians 1:8-10 KJV
In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: [9] Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; [10] When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

And again:

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 KJV
For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. [8] And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

In both passages the coming of the Lord brings rest to the saints but destruction to the enemies. The same event is experienced differently depending on which class a participant is.

Again:

Hebrews 12:28-29 KJV
Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: [29] For our God is a consuming fire.

God is a consuming fire that destroys the wicked, yet His presence is Life and health to His people. Paul noted this:

2 Corinthians 2:14-16 KJV
Now thanks be unto God, which always causeth us to triumph in Christ, and maketh manifest the savour of his knowledge by us in every place. [15] For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish: [16] To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?

The aroma is the same, but perceived differently by them that are saved and them that perish. To one we are an aroma of life that leads to life, but to the other we are the aroma of death that leads to death. The presence of God is sweet to His people, but the same presence is death and hell to those in opposition to Him.

Isaiah 33:14-17 KJV
The sinners in Zion are afraid; fearfulness hath surprised the hypocrites. Who among us shall dwell with the devouring fire? who among us shall dwell with everlasting burnings? [15] He that walketh righteously, and speaketh uprightly; he that despiseth the gain of oppressions, that shaketh his hands from holding of bribes, that stoppeth his ears from hearing of blood, and shutteth his eyes from seeing evil; [16] He shall dwell on high: his place of defence shall be the munitions of rocks: bread shall be given him; his waters shall be sure. [17] Thine eyes shall see the king in his beauty: they shall behold the land that is very far off.

The question is who will dwell with the everlasting flame? The answer is the righteous, because the same fire of God's presence that the righteous shall enjoy consumes and destroys the wicked.

So Israel being baptised with the Holy Spirit and fire speaks to the saints receiving the fiery presence of God, as well as the wicked being judged and destroyed by that same presence.
Excellent point. It makes sense.
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Old 04-06-2022, 05:49 AM
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Re: "With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

Speaking of fire, I've been cooking a 15 pound brisket in a cheap offset smoker since 3 pm yesterday. Just put it in a steaming hot cooler about 30 minutes ago. Hopefully by noon I'll be able to set it out to finish resting. Maybe I can get some rest too.
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Old 04-06-2022, 07:39 AM
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Re: "With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Speaking of fire, I've been cooking a 15 pound brisket in a cheap offset smoker since 3 pm yesterday. Just put it in a steaming hot cooler about 30 minutes ago. Hopefully by noon I'll be able to set it out to finish resting. Maybe I can get some rest too.
Let's see, what airline has the cheapest tickets from WI to TX...???
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Old 04-06-2022, 07:39 AM
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Re: "With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

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Originally Posted by Amanah View Post
Thank you Votive!
You bet, Sis.
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Old 04-06-2022, 07:55 AM
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Re: "With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
votivesoul,

Those are good points. However, "kai' can be translated as well as "and". It is also part of the semantic range. The words meaning are determined by their context. The context is already giving to the passage its meaning. You can't just give meanings and interpret the phrase in isolation with the context, otherwise you are falling into fallacies. Those same rules apply to every language, not just Greek.

The context indicates a imminent judgment bringing separation, and fire is used in the context twice already associated with judgment. It make sense to assume that "kai" means "and", and "fire" means a metaphor for judgment.




Semantic range of kai:
Strong: καί kaí, kahee; apparently, a primary particle, having a copulative and sometimes also a cumulative force; and, also, even, so then, too, etc.; often used in connection (or composition) with other particles or small words:—and, also, both, but, even, for, if, or, so, that, then, therefore, when, yet.

The full semantic range with lots of details are in Bauer's or Thayer's lexicon. I have both of them, and I see "and" as a perfectly valid translation when the context indicates so. There is no one single meaning for kai, or even one single translation.

When it comes to Word Study, there are three rules: context, context, and context.
Thanks for commenting, coksiw. I am aware that kai can be translated as "and" and is in fact, most commonly translated that way.

It is a copulative, first and foremost, joining two ideas or things together in a string.

That is why I wrote:

Quote:
It might then best be argued that καὶ (kai) here ought to be understood as something like "even", or "that is to say", or possibly "as well as" so the phrase could read:
Notice, I did not use the word "translated", but rather "understood". I think "and" is perfectly suitable in this case. What I was intending to show was the correct understanding of "and".

Otherwise, here are some further points of consideration. Tell me what you think.

1.) Since both pneumati hagio and pyri are both in the dative case, it is imperative to recognize that it's not just being baptized WITH the Holy Spirit, and fire, but rather, being baptized WITH the Holy Spirit and WITH fire.

The English word "with" must be included twice for the correct understanding to be achieved. As such, it's a strong point toward understanding that those present who heard John that day, should have understood that not only would Jesus baptize them with the Holy Spirit, they would also be baptized by Jesus with fire, again showing, that the ones who receive the Holy Spirit through Jesus, also receive the fire, through Jesus, when the Spirit comes upon them.

2.) Since the word kai was used, it is important to note that the author did not use the Greek for "or", namely ἤ (é). If he had, the phrase would have to be rendered in English as "he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit, or with fire". That would indicate two camps, the first receiving the Spirit, the second receiving the fire (as an indication of judgment against them).

But since kai was used, there isn't a way to generate such distinctions, hence my original point.

3.) Everything Esaias wrote is right on!

4.) Recall that Jesus said the Holy Spirit would "reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment (John 16:8, ESV).

The believer receives the Spirit, and through the believer, the Spirit does exactly what Jesus said. In and through the believer, people of the world find themselves reproved of their sin. In their sinful state, you find people often become agitated and antagonistic toward those who are full of the Holy Spirit. They feel condemned and intimidated by those who walk in the Spirit, particularly if they love darkness rather than light, because their deeds are evil.

But those who love light instead of darkness, and show that their deeds are manifest in God, come to the light, and welcome the presence of the Spirit-filled and find themselves drawn to the things of God and are therefore ripe for harvest.

So, the reproving power of the Spirit acts in one instance as a judgment upon those who love darkness, but in the next instance, acts as a drawing power to them who love light.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 04-06-2022 at 07:58 AM.
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