"With the Holy Ghost and with fire"

[coksiw]

Many preaching and songs have been preached and sung referring to the "Holy Ghost and fire" or "fire come down", however, ...

Let's read these verses and within the context. What you do think "fire" in "with the Holy Ghost and with fire" refers to?

[Mat 3:9-12 KJV] 9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to [our] father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham. 10 And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire. 11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and [with] fire: 12 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

[Luk 3:16-18 KJV] 16 John answered, saying unto [them] all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire: 17 Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and will gather the wheat into his garner; but the chaff he will burn with fire unquenchable. 18 And many other things in his exhortation preached he unto the people.

[coksiw]

These are my thoughts answering to myself. Would love to hear yours.

"fire" in the context refers to judgment. So John has a crowd of people, some are truly repenting but other like the Pharisees are there inspecting this new preacher called John. John is preaching to the people of Israel and to both kinds of audiences. So John is calling for an imminent moment of judgment, and the "mightier" one will come and baptize some with the Holy Spirit, and others with fire of judgment: "Whose fan [is] in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

The Holy Spirit is usually associated with water pouring down from heaven, or with oil, that also feeds the flame of the candlestick in the Temple. The day of Pentecost in Acts 2 witnessed flames, but that was a sign to indicate that the oil of the Spirit move to the church, and therefore, church is the new temple where God inhabits instead of the actual Temple in Jerusalem.


To support this point even more, when Peter remembered John's words, he didn't refer to the "fire baptism":

[Act 11:16 KJV] 16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

I don't recall anywhere in the book of Acts, or even the Epistles where the Holy Spirit coming upon a believer is referred to as "fire baptism" or "fire coming down from Heaven".

When Mark referred to John's words without detailing the "judgment" part, he excluded the "with fire" part:

[Mar 1:3-8 KJV] 3 The voice of one crying in the wilderness, Prepare ye the way of the Lord, make his paths straight. 4 John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins. 5 And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins. 6 And John was clothed with camel's hair, and with a girdle of a skin about his loins; and he did eat locusts and wild honey; 7 And preached, saying, There cometh one mightier than I after me, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to stoop down and unloose. 8 I indeed have baptized you with water: but he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost.

When John did the same, he also excluded the "with fire" part:

[Jhn 1:33 KJV] 33 And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize with water, the same said unto me, Upon whom thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and remaining on him, the same is he which baptizeth with the Holy Ghost.

So I think this is an example how a misinterpretation changed the metaphors in our churches.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by coksiw

These are my thoughts answering to myself. Would love to hear yours.

"fire" in the context refers to judgment.

Exactly.,

[Jito463]

It likely stems from the day of Pentecost, where when the Holy Ghost fell upon them, they saw 'cloven tongues like as of fire' sitting on each of them.

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by Jito463

It likely stems from the day of Pentecost, where when the Holy Ghost fell upon them, they saw 'cloven tongues like as of fire' sitting on each of them.

Some of the references I hear is referring not to the cloven tongues like as of fire from the day of Pentecost, but to the John's use of the term fire, because they use phrases like "with the Holy Ghost and fire". So I'm referring to that specific phrase or the use of "fire" referring to John's message.

[diakonos]

Cloven, like as of fire. Hint, hint.

[Amanah]

I think this commentary from Praxeas is interesting:

Originally Posted by Praxeas

ISBE
Not always with judgement
Fire in the Old Testament is specially associated with the Divine presence, e.g. in the making of the Covenant with Abraham (Gen_15:17), in the burning bush. (Exo_3:2-4), in the pillar of fire (Exo_13:21), on Sinai (Exo_19:18), in the flame on the altar (Jdg_13:20). Yahweh was "the God that answereth by fire" (1Ki_18:24, 1Ki_18:38). In the Law, therefore, sacrifices and offerings (including incense) were to be made by fire (Exo_12:8, Exo_12:9, Exo_12:10; Lev 1). Fire from Yahweh signified the acceptance of certain special and separate sacrifices (Jdg_6:21; 1Ki_18:38; 1Ch_21:26). In Lev_9:24 the sacrificial fire "came forth from before Yahweh." The altar-fire was to be kept continually burning (Lev_6:12, Lev_6:13); offering by "strange fire" (other than the sacred altar-fire) was punished by "fire from before Yahweh" (Lev_10:1, Lev_10:2). Fire came from heaven also at the consecration of Solomon's Temple (2Ch_7:1).

Fire was an emblem (1) of Yahweh in His glory (Dan_7:9); (2) in His holiness (Isa_6:4); (3) in His jealousy for His sole worship (Deu_4:24; Heb_12:29; Psa_79:5; perhaps also Isa_33:14); (4) of His protection of His people (2Ki_6:17; Zec_2:5); (5) of His righteous judgment and purification (Zec_13:9; Mal_3:2, Mal_3:3; 1Co_3:13, 1Co_3:15); (6) of His wrath against sin and punishment of the wicked (Deu_9:3; Psa_18:8; Psa_89:46; Isa_5:24; Isa_30:33, "a Topheth is prepared of old"; Mat_3:10-12; Mat_5:22, the Revised Version (British and American) "the hell of fire," margin "Greek, Gehenna of fire"; see Isa_30:33; Jer_7:31; Mat_13:40, Mat_13:42; Mat_25:41, "eternal fire"; Mar_9:45-49; see Isa_66:24; 2Th_1:7; Heb_10:27; Jud_1:7); (7) of the word of God in its power (Jer_5:14; Jer_23:29); (8) of Divine truth (Psa_39:3; Jer_20:9; Luk_12:49); (9) of that which guides men (Isa_50:10, Isa_50:11); (10) of the Holy Spirit (Act_2:3); (11) of the glorified Christ (Rev_1:14); (12) of kindness in its melting power (Rom_12:20); (13) of trial and suffering (Psa_66:12; Isa_43:2; 1 Pet 17; 1Pe_4:12); (14) of evil (Pro_6:27; Pro_16:27; Isa_9:18; Isa_65:5); lust or desire (Hos_7:6; Sirach 23:16; 1Co_7:9); greed (Pro_30:16); (15) of the tongue in its evil aspects (Jam_3:5, Jam_3:6); (16) of heaven in its purity and glory (Rev_15:2; see also Rev_21:22, Rev_21:23).

[coksiw]

Originally Posted by diakonos

Cloven, like as of fire. Hint, hint.

Originally Posted by Amanah

I think this commentary from Praxeas is interesting:

So you think the "fire" in the context of John's message does not refer to the judgment of God but to something else like acceptance of sacrifice?

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by coksiw

So you think the "fire" in the context of John's message does not refer to the judgment of God but to something else like acceptance of sacrifice?

I agree that in the context of John's message fire refers to judgement.

[diakonos]

Originally Posted by coksiw

So you think the "fire" in the context of John's message does not refer to the judgment of God but to something else like acceptance of sacrifice?

I don’t believe the people saw fire.