Sinless Perfection

[n david]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Just stunning. So no one is living as an overcomer? No one is without spot and blameless?

Luke 11:1-4: "And it came to pass, that, as he was praying in a certain place, when he ceased, one of his disciples said unto him, Lord, teach us to pray, as John also taught his disciples. And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth. Give us day by day our daily bread. And forgive us our sins; for we also forgive every one that is indebted to us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil."

Jesus said, "When ye pray." This is not a sinner's prayer. This is a prayer Jesus is teaching His Disciples. "Forgive us our sins."

1 John 5:16-17: "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death."

Christians sin.

1 John 1:7-9: "But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."

"If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves."

Present tense. That is not speaking of past sins from before we are walking in the light. This is speaking of the present.

Don't deceive yourself, Mike. Christians (even you) sin. What matters is that we don't continue in sin, but that we confess and repent of the sin and remove it from our lives.

Now, you can overcome sin and temptation. But to claim you're perfect is only deceiving yourself.

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Whenever we drop below Gods standard we should be very afraid.

What is God's standard regarding assembling with other believers?

[n david]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Whenever this subject comes up, people for some reason invariably want to make it about the persons involved in the discussion rather than about what Scripture says.

That's true of most subjects; however, if someone is going to claim perfection, they should be prepared to defend their claim.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by n david

Now, you can overcome sin and temptation. But to claim you're perfect is only deceiving yourself.

Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mat_19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Luk_6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Joh_17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
1Co_2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
2Co_13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Php_3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Col_1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col_4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
1Th_3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jas_1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
1Pe_5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by n david

That's true of most subjects; however, if someone is going to claim perfection, they should be prepared to defend their claim.

He did not claim perfection. He claimed the bible teaches that we can and ought to be perfect.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Esaias

He did not claim perfection. He claimed the bible teaches that we can and ought to be perfect.

Semantics. His posts imply he believes he's without spot, blameless or perfect.

[Esaias]

The biggest problem with this subject is that people do not agree on what "perfect" actually means. Many understand "perfect" to be a higher standard than the Bible teaches, a standard so high that it is patently impossible to ever reach. Others set the bar so low that "perfect" becomes a near meaningless word.

The Bible however is absolutely clear, that perfection is the goal. And if it is the goal, it is attainable. The question then is to determine "How does the Bible define perfection? What is the perfection being spoken of?" and "How is that goal to be reached?"

Sadly, though, many are not interested in those things, they would just rather attack anyone who dares to raise the subject and accuse them of being deluded and proud, self righteous, "holier than thou", or simply and plainly nuts. Or, they seek to side track the discussion into areas that have no bearing on what the Bible says. (For example, suppose every single human being on earth rejected any belief in Jesus as the Messiah. Would this alter the Bible's teachings on that subject? Of course not. So, too, supposing every single human being who ever lived, is living, or ever will live fails to be "perfect" as the Bible defines perfection. This will have no bearing whatsoever on what the Bible teaches. Whether we believe God's Word or not doesn't change God's Word. Let every man be a liar, and let God's Word be true, amen?)

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by n david

Semantics. His posts imply he believes he's without spot, blameless or perfect.

Wrong. It is not semantics. If he believes he is without spot, blameless, or perfect that has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the Bible teaches that we can be blameless, without spot, or perfect. If he is himself the worst hypocrite walking, it would still have no bearing on whether or not the Bible teaches any particular thing.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Wrong. It is not semantics. If he believes he is without spot, blameless, or perfect that has no bearing whatsoever on whether or not the Bible teaches that we can be blameless, without spot, or perfect. If he is himself the worst hypocrite walking, it would still have no bearing on whether or not the Bible teaches any particular thing.

So powerful!

[n david]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Mat_5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
Mat_19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.
Luk_6:40 The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.
Joh_17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
1Co_2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
2Co_13:11 Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.
Php_3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
Col_1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Col_4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.
1Th_3:10 Night and day praying exceedingly that we might see your face, and might perfect that which is lacking in your faith?
2Ti_3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.
Heb_12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,
Heb 13:21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Jas_1:4 But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.
1Pe_5:10 But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you.

I see you can use a concordance. Good for you.

What's missing is that none of these are about present perfection. Words mean things, and "perfect" in the verses above have different meanings. Most of these verses are about coming to perfection, speaking of the finished work of God. Some simply mean being "whole" or without need of anything.

[n david]

Originally Posted by Esaias

He did not claim perfection. He claimed the bible teaches that we can and ought to be perfect.

Originally Posted by n david

Semantics. His posts imply he believes he's without spot, blameless or perfect.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Wrong. It is not semantics.

You are arguing semantics. You claim Mike isn't claiming to be perfect, that he's only saying the Bible says we can and ought to be.

But Mike is claiming to be perfect ... and mocking those who don't agree with him.