Sinless Perfection

[Michael The Disciple]

I will drop this into the mix. I believe many of the people who make statements like "we all sin everyday" just say it because it is EXPECTED by their peers. They have been so completely deceived that EVEN WHEN they are overcoming sin their doctrine wont allow them to believe it or say it.

I "hope" anyway that many of them are just being humble when they say such things.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

And who in this thread ever said they are perfect in and of themselves? No one.

So what pray tell is awesome and glorious about the Holy Ghost baptism if thereby the baptized believer cannot even live a holy life? So would they say people get healed wonderfully? Prophetic words come forth? Various miracles?

ANYTHING THEY SAY IS POSSIBLE......EXCEPT POWER TO LOVE GOD CONSISTENTLY DEMONSTRATED BY HIS COMMANDMENTS!

Practically all Pentecostal/Charismatic types agree to this.

Eh, nobody really agrees on His "commandments". lol

Sabbath keepers have one list, each organization has another, each denomination have yet other lists. Hebrew roots people have their lists, and differ among themselves too on points. Whose list is right? It's all subjective, based on people's knowledge, interests, and their teachers.

The only solid, consistent, unchanging, and objective reality is... grace. A scandalous, life changing, freeing, empowering, grace. Imputed sinless perfection to walk in as one learns to surrender more and more to the Spirit as they undergo sanctification. Unmerited favor. Pure love and acceptance predicated upon the finished work of Christ Jesus.

After hearing every kind of crazy expectation and legalistic list imaginable in my 29+ years of being born again... I've come to the realization that only grace is solid ground. The finished work of Christ.

Unworthy... yet signed, sealed, and delivered.

That's me.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

I will drop this into the mix. I believe many of the people who make statements like "we all sin everyday" just say it because it is EXPECTED by their peers. They have been so completely deceived that EVEN WHEN they are overcoming sin their doctrine wont allow them to believe it or say it.

I "hope" anyway that many of them are just being humble when they say such things.

I agree with this wholeheartedly.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I don't understand. A person trips over a branch on accident. Do people sin accidentally? How does one overcome sin if they are still sinning?




Jesus' overturning the moneychangers' tables is not connected to "anger" anywhere in Scripture. In John it is connected with "zeal" or jealousy (thus proving zeal or jealousy are not sins!) but it doesn't say "Jesus got angry and overturned the tables". Where is "anger" listed as a sin? If that's true, then God is a sinner!

Psa_7:11 God judgeth the righteous, and God is angry with the wicked every day.
Num_22:22 And God's anger was kindled because he went: and the angel of the LORD stood in the way for an adversary against him. Now he was riding upon his ass, and his two servants were with him.

Jesus was angry:

Mar_3:5 And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other.

It is obvious you have a different definition of sin, anger, etc than the Bible does.



Which ones are IMPOSSIBLE TO AVOID? Whether you, me, and everyone else commits sin every minute, every hour, every day, from birth to death is irrelevent as to whether or not it is POSSIBLE NOT TO SIN BY THE GRACE OF GOD. So, again, what sins are IMPOSSIBLE to avoid? What commandments of God are IMPOSSIBLE to obey?

I'm not sure if any sin is on accident. Maybe something circumstantial like manslaughter. Maybe shouting a curse word if you slam your thumb with a hammer. But how does one lie on accident? Commit adultery on accident? Or lust on accident? I think most sin is in some degree deliberate, a choice. Even if only on the most remote level of intention, it's a choice. Whenever I've sinned, and I've committed some doozies, it was almost always a choice.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What's weird is ALL Pentecostals USED to teach and believe in overcoming sin. As far as I can tell the change seemed to come about somewhere in the 1960s or 70s, I'm guessing?

I know a great deal of Pentecostals that used to teach going to the doctor only demonstrated a lack of faith.

I think the young and zealous Pentecostal movement matured in many ways. While at the same time the fear of change caused them to freeze themselves into a mold.

But as time passes, more is learned in the Scriptures, and experience becomes wisdom... things change.

As I get older, I begin to realize more and more as to how much of a sinful rascal I really am. lol That doesn't mean I'm always "sinning"... but the internal inclination, desire, and understanding of sin that resides in my flesh becomes more and more clear to me.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by Esaias

What's weird is ALL Pentecostals USED to teach and believe in overcoming sin. As far as I can tell the change seemed to come about somewhere in the 1960s or 70s, I'm guessing?

It must have been a long way back. Among the Pentecostals I came up with from 1974 on MOST never believed in holiness and perfection but rather mocked it at times calling it "Old Time Pentecost".

Holiness was usually associated with dress codes. On that they were strict. Admittedly they were almost all Trinitarians.

[Aquila]

You know what I love most about grace... it allows for authenticity.

In my experience many who profess perfection don't have it. If pressed, they admit that they don't have it... or they lie their way into convincing themselves that they do have it.

Nothing can be more perfect, or liberating, than being real.

[Esaias]

Concerning praying for forgiveness of sins by the sanctified:

Lev_5:18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Num_15:24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
Num_15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:

Num_15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

There are sins committed in ignorance. These are situations where either one does something not realising it is sin, or where one does not realise they have actually done the deed whatever it was. These are still classed as sins, and must be atoned for, and must be forgiven. But they are not willful sins. It may be that a person is wholly committed to Christ, loves God with all their heart and their neighbour as themself, and thus has a "pure heart" (meaning a heart that is simple, has a single ingredient, the love of God). But this person may sin through ignorance, due to a lack of information or knowledge. Or, sometimes we do something, intending good, and yet the situation turns out to be bad. For example, you tell someone you are going to do something, but then you genuinely forget to do it. Your intention certainly was not to deceive, yet that is technically what happened. Is it sin? Perhaps, depending on why you forgot. Perhaps not.

But a sanctified soul asking God to forgive them of their sins DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN that person is a willful, voluntary, rebellious sinner, or that they think of themselves as such.

It should also be remembered that the Our Father is given as a corporate prayer, something the whole church prays together (whether literally, or as a model):

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
(Matthew 6:5-13)

Notice the transition from "when THOU prayest" to "when YE pray". The church prays together, and it is likely there will be persons present who need forgiveness. It is thus entirely proper to offer prayer together including a request for forgiveness, so that those who need it may be forgiven.

Consider that prayer is not simply for one's own needs, but also involves a communion or sharing or FELLOWSHIP with others in their needs.

Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
(Romans 12:15)

If you've ever prayed with someone in an altar service, have you never prayed outloud "Lord forgive me for my sins" because you are showing the person how to pray, because you are in fact identifying with them as if you were them, in their position? Have you never prayed with someone "I ask you Lord fill me with your Spirit and lead me and guide me"? Not because you have no Holy Ghost but because you identify with the seeker and pray with them, sharing in their need and hoping to impart some faith or at least to be a model of faith?

Consider also Daniel's prayer:

In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that he would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem. And I set my face unto the Lord God, to seek by prayer and supplications, with fasting, and sackcloth, and ashes: And I prayed unto the LORD my God, and made my confession, and said, O Lord, the great and dreadful God, keeping the covenant and mercy to them that love him, and to them that keep his commandments; We have sinned, and have committed iniquity, and have done wickedly, and have rebelled, even by departing from thy precepts and from thy judgments:
(Daniel 9:2-5)

Had Daniel committed iniquity, done wickedly, rebelled, by departing from God's precepts and judgments? Or was Daniel identifying with his people who, generally speaking and as a corporate whole, had done those things?


Also, another example, a person may not need to ask God to give him his daily bread because he already has it. Does this mean he should not ask in prayer to be given his daily bread? Of course not, it means that he desires God to maintain the provision of daily bread. Likewise with forgiveness, it is as if one is asking "Father, if and whenever I sin, please forgive me, let me walk continuously in your forgiveness and mercy".

[Aquila]

What do we mean by overcoming sin, or being free from sin, or having no sin?

Because not only is the definition of "sin" a factor... but our understanding of being free from sin is a factor.

Do we mean that we no longer sin at all, as in commit any sinful actions?

Do we mean that have no sin in that the mere desire, inclination, and capability of sinning in our nature is totally irradiated and we live in a way that is just so heavenly it's a wonder we haven't been raptured yet?

Do we mean that we no longer "habitually" sin?

Do we mean that our inner man is perfect and sinless, but the flesh remains sinful, fallen, with all sinful inclinations it ever had, and so when we do sin it isn't necessarily us that sins but sin that dwells within us?

Do we mean that all the laws we don't like God abolished so what we do is no longer sin?

I've encountered all those perspectives, in addition to a few more I'm sure I can't remember. lol

Because sometimes we're talking about totally different things. When I say that I'm a sinful wretch, it doesn't mean that I'm running around actually sinning all day. It means that my spiritual understanding of my nature has grown in that I can sense the sinful inclinations and tendencies in my flesh and of the carnal mind. It means that there are days when this flesh desires sin... and I have to resist and bring it into submission. In this context I cannot say that I'm sinless, if my flesh still desires sin. However, I could argue that I'm sinless in that I've not committed any egregious sinful actions today.

Oh, wait. I did break the speed limit on the way to work today. And I did get angry and raise my voice at my daughter while she was getting ready for school because she couldn't find her shoes... only to discover that her mother had moved them and that's why she couldn't find them. I broke the law, and was angry without cause. I failed to be patient, to ask questions, to seek to understand, and to find resolution. In that, I sinned, missing the mark of Godlike perfection.

My point is that there are different angles to this. In one sense, we might be sinless. In another, we might not be so sinless.

It's multifaceted.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Concerning praying for forgiveness of sins by the sanctified:

Lev_5:18 And he shall bring a ram without blemish out of the flock, with thy estimation, for a trespass offering, unto the priest: and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his ignorance wherein he erred and wist it not, and it shall be forgiven him.

Num_15:24 Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
Num_15:25 And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:

Num_15:28 And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

There are sins committed in ignorance. These are situations where either one does something not realising it is sin, or where one does not realise they have actually done the deed whatever it was. These are still classed as sins, and must be atoned for, and must be forgiven. But they are not willful sins. It may be that a person is wholly committed to Christ, loves God with all their heart and their neighbour as themself, and thus has a "pure heart" (meaning a heart that is simple, has a single ingredient, the love of God). But this person may sin through ignorance, due to a lack of information or knowledge. Or, sometimes we do something, intending good, and yet the situation turns out to be bad. For example, you tell someone you are going to do something, but then you genuinely forget to do it. Your intention certainly was not to deceive, yet that is technically what happened. Is it sin? Perhaps, depending on why you forgot. Perhaps not.

But a sanctified soul asking God to forgive them of their sins DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN that person is a willful, voluntary, rebellious sinner, or that they think of themselves as such.

It should also be remembered that the Our Father is given as a corporate prayer, something the whole church prays together (whether literally, or as a model):

And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him. After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors. And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
(Matthew 6:5-13)

Notice the transition from "when THOU prayest" to "when YE pray". The church prays together, and it is likely there will be persons present who need forgiveness. It is thus entirely proper to offer prayer together including a request for forgiveness, so that those who need it may be forgiven.

Consider that prayer is not simply for one's own needs, but also involves a communion or sharing or FELLOWSHIP with others in their needs.

Rejoice with them that do rejoice, and weep with them that weep.
(Romans 12:15)

If you've ever prayed with someone in an altar service, have you never prayed outloud "Lord forgive me for my sins" because you are showing the person how to pray, because you are in fact identifying with them as if you were them, in their position? Have you never prayed with someone "I ask you Lord fill me with your Spirit and lead me and guide me"? Not because you have no Holy Ghost but because you identify with the seeker and pray with them, sharing in their need and hoping to impart some faith or at least to be a model of faith?

Also, another example, a person may not need to ask God to give him his daily bread because he already has it. Does this mean he should not ask in prayer to be given his daily bread? Of course not, it means that he desires God to maintain the provision of daily bread. Likewise with forgiveness, it is as if one is asking "Father, if and whenever I sin, please forgive me, let me walk continuously in your forgiveness and mercy".

Good stuff on sinning in ignorance.

So, if one willfully sins, like willfully breaks the speed limit (we're commanded to obey every ordinance of man) have they lost their salvation?

If so, can they get it back?

How many times can one lose it, get it back, lose it, get it back, lose it, and get it back?