Remission Of Sins Through Baptism

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Where does it say His sins weren't remitted? Ananias was referring to the ritual act of Old Covenant Immersion (Mikveh).

Do yourself a favor and google Mikveh. You might learn something. Study the purpose of baptism. These men were jews, they weren't living in 2008 Christianity. They were JEWS!!! Even after conversion, Paul rebaptized again before he went into the Temple. HE still followed his traditions although he didn't impose them on others.

Acts 21:26
Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

Can you show me where in the Levitical law this purifying was baptism? I see the sacrifices and offerings but did not see where there was a ritual washing

Also were not the ritual cleansings involving full immersions really baths and did a priest literally dunk them? In Acts baptism is passive, meaning they are baptized BY someone else.

Also, yes they were Jews but the Gentiles too were baptized. One purpose of baptism in Jesus name was in part of becoming a disciple (I already posted those verses). Paul was not "rebaptized" even if he did purify himself according to the law of ritual washings. They both involve water, sure. They might even both involve immersion, but they are not the same thing

[Praxeas]

Dan would you say that the act of repentance does not save us (us repenting) but that however there is no salvation without repentance?

Is obedience a work? When it is God calling us to obey? We are called to obey the gospel...my question then is if Paul says that those that disobey the gospel will be destroyed, what is it about the gospel we must obey then?

Here is how I look at it. Abraham was justified by faith. His works gave evidence OF his faith. Yet, had Abraham not obeyed God He never would have received what it was God promised Him.

While baptism itself might not do anything can there be a work of the Holy Ghost in someone that occurs at baptism...whatever that may be?

[Praxeas]

BTW as far as "works" are concerned, I don't believe the bible teaches works means anything you can do. It refers to anything you can do of the law.

Second the prohibition against works, speaking of boasting, seems to be about personal performance rather than once being baptized in Jesus name. For example someone claiming they have a ticket to heaven because they do a lot of witnessing or because they never cut their hair.

This was what Luther opposed in Rome....first they added things to the word "Indulgences", and second they made continuing to do them salvific

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

BTW as far as "works" are concerned, I don't believe the bible teaches works means anything you can do. It refers to anything you can do of the law.

Second the prohibition against works, speaking of boasting, seems to be about personal performance rather than once being baptized in Jesus name. For example someone claiming they have a ticket to heaven because they do a lot of witnessing or because they never cut their hair.

This was what Luther opposed in Rome....first they added things to the word "Indulgences", and second they made continuing to do them salvific

When you say of the law? Do you refer to Mosaic law, Praxeas?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

When you say of the law? Do you refer to Mosaic law, Praxeas?

Yes. Usually when Paul speaks of works he is referring to people who had been judaized.

BTW this would also then mean anything one can do outside of the New Covenant is a work

[SDG]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Yes. Usually when Paul speaks of works he is referring to people who had been judaized.

BTW this would also then mean anything one can do outside of the New Covenant is a work

Hmmm ... interesting ... although I agree that many times he speaks to those whose seek justification through Mosaic law ...

Yet he does speak of Abraham not being justified by works... Pre-Mosaic law

Romans 4:
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

And speaks of works of righteousness ... or good performance/deeds in Titus 3:

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.


I'm not sure I can limit this to just Mosaic law ....

Furthermore when 1 steppers speak of salvific works they refer specifically to those who view salvation being obtained through a 3 step process ....

[staysharp]

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Can you show me where in the Levitical law this purifying was baptism? I see the sacrifices and offerings but did not see where there was a ritual washing

Numbers 19
19And the clean person shall sprinkle [the water for purification] upon the unclean person on the third day and on the seventh day, and on the seventh day the unclean man shall purify himself, and wash his clothes and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at evening.

Without quoting from the Talmud and other Jewish sources, biblically this is the process for purification. The waters of separation or death and the Mikvah.

This is the Jewish baptism. Also, when a Gentile was converted to Judaism, three things were required.

1. Male circumcision
2. A sacrificial offering
3. Go through the purifying process.

The females were not required to circumcise...lol

Also were not the ritual cleansings involving full immersions really baths and did a priest literally dunk them?

According to Biblical Scholars the ritual baths were not necessarily administered by a priest, but usually someone was close by to witness the process. If not the priest, others in training. By the time of Christ, this process had somewhat morphed into several different rituals, according to segments of Jewish societal traditions and depending upon which cult they belonged to.

John was a part of the Essenes and was referred to as the Baptizer, because he focused on this ritual cleansing as a witness to repentance.

In Acts baptism is passive, meaning they are baptized BY someone else.

Also, yes they were Jews but the Gentiles too were baptized.

Again, in Acts 2, many came from other nations, tribes and tongues, but they were all of Jewish faith. A Gentile was only baptized upon conversion to Judaism. The bible does not say any of these are Gentiles.

Paul was not "rebaptized" even if he did purify himself according to the law of ritual washings. They both involve water, sure. They might even both involve immersion, but they are not the same thing

I find no distinction in all of my studies. The purification process was as outlined in Numbers 19. The sprinkling of Holy Water and the bodily bath. (Mikvahed)

We need to keep in mind the word "sin" when understanding this ritual process. It wasn't a sin unto death. It was a sin against the community. If they refused purification, they were put out of the community.

Again, as I stated earlier, the remission of sins (soul sins) were always remitted by the shedding of blood. Never by baptism. Hope this helps.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Hmmm ... interesting ... although I agree that many times he speaks to those whose seek justification through Mosaic law ...

Yet he does speak of Abraham not being justified by works... Pre-Mosaic law

Romans 4:
For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

And speaks of works of righteousness ... or good performance/deeds in Titus 3:

But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.


I'm not sure I can limit this to just Mosaic law ....

Furthermore when 1 steppers speak of salvific works they refer specifically to those who view salvation being obtained through a 3 step process ....

Thanks for bringing this up. I was thinking of bringing this out. What exactly is a work of righteousness? And if anyone says baptism what makes baptism a work of rightousness?

See the way this sounds is of something one continues to do...continued works they rely on.

Is baptism ever called a work? Repentance? Confession?

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by staysharp

Numbers 19
19And the clean person shall sprinkle [the water for purification] upon the unclean person on the third day and on the seventh day, and on the seventh day the unclean man shall purify himself, and wash his clothes and bathe himself in water, and shall be clean at evening.

Without quoting from the Talmud and other Jewish sources, biblically this is the process for purification. The waters of separation or death and the Mikvah.

This is the Jewish baptism. Also, when a Gentile was converted to Judaism, three things were required.

1. Male circumcision
2. A sacrificial offering
3. Go through the purifying process.

The females were not required to circumcise...lol

Thanks, but we were talking about Paul when he had his vow weren't we? HE seems to have had a nazarite vow

I have to go for now. Try again later

[Scott Hutchinson]

There are works that are a result of faith,like repentance,and then there are works that are works of the ceremonial law.
Abraham was considered righteous because he trusted God but yet His faith drove Him to obedience.Faith without works is dead, but yet man is incapable to save himself by his own goodness.