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02-27-2020, 11:36 AM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968
com·pul·sion
/kəmˈpəlSHən/
noun
noun: compulsion; plural noun: compulsions
the action or state of forcing or being forced to do something; constraint.
Can you please give me an example that you are aware of that a Pastor is forcing the members of the congregation to pay a 10% tithe?
Because if that is happing, I would call that abuse. Now, if the members of the congregation are happy to put money in the plate, and allow their Pastor to take what he needs, is that compulsion?
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I’m not sure how I missed this, but evidently I did. I will try to find the sermon by Greg Riggen on tithing. He is a VERY aggressive advocate of tithing. He believes God is keeping accounts of tithing, and if you’re a penny in arears you are lost. Because God has the best accountants.
He says that it is impossible to be saved, if you do not tithe. Because God will not allow thieves into heaven.
He once was the Kansas District Superintendent of UPCI, I believe.
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02-27-2020, 11:52 AM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister
I’m not sure how I missed this, but evidently I did. I will try to find the sermon by Greg Riggen on tithing. He is a VERY aggressive advocate of tithing. He believes God is keeping accounts of tithing, and if you’re a penny in arears you are lost. Because God has the best accountants.
He says that it is impossible to be saved, if you do not tithe. Because God will not allow thieves into heaven.
He once was the Kansas District Superintendent of UPCI, I believe.
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I have heard that very argument made to the point that if you shortchange God by....one...penny.... you will go to Hell as a thief and robber!
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02-27-2020, 12:26 PM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument
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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
I have heard that very argument made to the point that if you shortchange God by....one...penny.... you will go to Hell as a thief and robber!
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I agree. Don’t be a thief or robber and you have nothing to worry about. Now will he send you to hell over one penny... I’m not going to find out.
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02-27-2020, 12:52 PM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968
I was taught probably like everyone here,
Genesis 28:20-22
And Jacob vowed a vow, saying, If God will be with me, and will keep me in this way that I go, and will give me bread to eat, and raiment to put on, [21] So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the Lord be my God: [22] And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.
Malachi 3:8
Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings.
We can argue on thats not what that means. Yet, thats what I was taught and I believed it. I supported my Pastor for 17+ years through 10% tithe and 5% offering, every week, month, and year. Now, the tithe was a covenant between God and myself, it wasnt between the Pastor and myself. Jacobs vow to God wasnt to another man but to God! So I gave faithfully to the work of God, not to the man, and he in return took what he received and gave 10% back to the church.
What I preach and teach is different than what I was taught. I dont preach 10% tithe, and I dont preach offering. I say give unto the Lord, and whats put in the plate is whats in the plate. I wasn’t called of man, I was called of God. God will supply my need. This may be different than what you would believe, but you asked. I’m starting a work for God, new work from the ground up, so I work as God opens the door. If there is no work then i wait on God
Isaiah 40:31
But they that wait upon the Lord shall renew their strength; they shall mount up with wings as eagles; they shall run, and not be weary; and they shall walk, and not faint.
I was blessed to have a Pastor up here teach me about Gods provision. What he taught me is lost in Pentecost! The Holy Ghost spoke to me a year ago and told me “I’m going to take care of you”, and he has. I have probably worked maybe 70 hours from 2019 up till now. I dont live a lavish lifestyle, I can survive on very little. I dont need new vehicles, i dont need a big house, i need Jesus. I have 5 children and a wife, and we live in a single wide trailer in a trailer park. God has been good to us. I dont want to be a burden on the church, so that means to me I dont live in a way that will be!
I believe every minister should be full time, and if the church isn’t there, then work very little to sustain your monthly needs and work in the spirit. I am a servant to the souls in my town, at the drop of a hat I can be where the need is. I dont have to go to a boss to ask permission.
My mentor in a church not too far from me, had several families leave, they were big supporters of the church. A spirit of fear started working against him, that he might now have to go and get a job. I known him for 20+ years he would’ve went and did what he had to do, but God was going to use what others intented for evil, for good. One evening service a man came into the church, the Spirit told the Pastor, he is a raven, he is not here to be saved. The Pastor didnt know what to make of that. After service, the man came up to the Pastor and handed him a big wad of cash, the Pastor said “ill make sure it goes to the church”, the man looked at him and said “thats for you”, he walked out and hasn’t been there since.
1 Kings 17:4
And it shall be, that thou shalt drink of the brook; and I have commanded the ravens to feed thee there.
I believe in ravens, God has supplied my need through them. I believe in Gods provision, and I believe living in the spirit to where God supplies. So to answer you’re question again, I dont preach a 10% tithe or hell, but I don’t condemn those that do preach tithe (not the hell part).
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Thank you brother, for posting this. May God bless you, your family and your work. In Jesus name.
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02-27-2020, 01:52 PM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument
Not a tithe guy in the traditional sense
but
1 Cor 9:11-14 - Allows for a minister to live off of offerings.
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02-27-2020, 07:39 PM
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Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968
What about,
Matthew 4:19-20
And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. [20] And they estraightway left their nets, and followed him.
Is there a scripture thats stats Peter and the rest went back to fishing for work again? Just because Paul did as an Apostle doesn’t mean every preacher should be a full time worker outside the spirit.
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Right.
1 Cor 9 clearly stated that ministers can live of the gospel and the only reason Paul did not was to avoid accusations of him simple seeking money. But he insisted that it is the minister's right.
That's why Jesus told them to go two by two and not take scrip nor purse, because people would support them.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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02-27-2020, 07:41 PM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister
Can you explain to me how the tithe generated income in the Old Testament, and how Paul states that it should be the same in the New Testament?
Is income money?
Please expound on this for me.
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Only if you understand that TITHE does not go hand in hand with all the laws about it in the old covenant. But Paul simply stated that the general manner of ministers living of the gospel was the same as priests living of the altar. It's the general aspect, not the split hairs of exactly how that's done. The New Testament does not get into anything more than ministers being able to be supported by offerings from the believers. That's what it meant by not muzzling the ox while he treads the corn.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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02-27-2020, 07:48 PM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister
One thing is for sure. If Paul was wrong, he was consistently wrong.
1Corinthians 4
[9] For I think that God hath set forth us the apostles last, as it were appointed to death: for we are made a spectacle unto the world, and to angels, and to men.
[10] We are fools for Christ's sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
[11] Even unto this present hour we both hunger, and thirst, and are naked, and are buffeted, and have no certain dwellingplace;
[12] And labour, working with our own hands: being reviled, we bless; being persecuted, we suffer it:
[13] Being defamed, we intreat: we are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things unto this day.
And in Thessalonians, they were evidently having a problem with elders wanting the church to support them, so they could focus on “full time ministry”.
[10] And indeed ye do it toward all the brethren which are in all Macedonia: but we beseech you, brethren, that ye increase more and more;
[11] And that ye study to be quiet, and to do your own business, and to work with your own hands, as we commanded you;
[12] That ye may walk honestly toward them that are without, and that ye may have lack of nothing.
Evidently, Paul’s commandment was not observed to his satisfaction. In 2 Thessalonians, he reiterated his commandment in even stronger language.
2 Thessalonians 3
[6] Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us.
[7] For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you;
[8] Neither did we eat any man's bread for nought; but wrought with labour and travail night and day, that we might not be chargeable to any of you:
[9] Not because we have not power, but to make ourselves an ensample unto you to follow us.
[10] For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.
[11] For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies.
[12] Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.
[13] But ye, brethren, be not weary in well doing.
[14] And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed.
[15] Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother.
[16] Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all.
There’s a lot of detail in this passage. It seems to be too much to ignore. Unless you want to, I guess.
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What about 1 Cor 9?
1 Corinthians 9:4-15.. Have we not power to eat and to drink? ..(5).. Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? ..(6).. Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working? ..(7).. Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?
Above Paul said that people are supported in the ministry just as the one who feeds the flock can live from the milk involved in his work. Who goes to war at his own out of pocket expense?
..(8).. Say I these things as a man? or saith not the law the same also? ..(9).. For it is written in the law of Moses, Thou shalt not muzzle the mouth of the ox that treadeth out the corn. Doth God take care for oxen?
He said that an ox ate of the very same corn he tread while he worked. The ox did not go to other sources of food other than the food that was provided to him where he tread.
..(10).. Or saith he it altogether for our sakes? For our sakes, no doubt, this is written: that he that ploweth should plow in hope; and that he that thresheth in hope should be partaker of his hope. ..(11).. If we have sown unto you spiritual things, is it a great thing if we shall reap your carnal things?
Reaping carnal things is whatever it takes to live provided by the people to whom he ministered.
..(12).. If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.
This is the reason Paul said he did not take incomce in money or food or whatever from the churches as your references above indicate. It was not because he should not do it. It was because he did not want the touchy people to accuse him of anything, when he had the full right to take support from them.
In other words, he said believers should support ministers, but he abrogated that RIGHT when he di not have to.
..(13).. Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? ..(14).. Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel. ..(15).. But I have used none of these things: neither have I written these things, that it should be so done unto me: for it were better for me to die, than that any man should make my glorying void.
Again he said it was his right to be supported by the people only he exempted himself. ANd we cannot turn around and say that we should follow Pual and God expects us to follow Paul and exempt ourselves of that right when the whole point in this chapter is that it is a right to be supported.
Again, read that chapter. It's a RIGHT. ANd Paul merely stepped away from that right and he would not have said it was a right if he meant no one should NOT exempt themselves.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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02-27-2020, 07:54 PM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tithesmeister
Right here.
[28] At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tithe of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates:
[29] And the Levite, (because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee,) and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.
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That is under the law.
So, you again demand that tithe must accompany laws associated with tithes when the term itself does not include that demand whatsoever. It did under law. But we are not under law so the accusatio of giving tithes being legalistic is only true if the laws related to it are involved. Not just giving ten percent.
Quote:
No. I KNOW people tithe because of false doctrine being taught by many, for many years, even generations. There are many reasons why people tithe. Most are based on false teaching.
Do you know of anybody who teaches false doctrine regarding tithes?
Do you know anybody who doesn’t teach false doctrine concerning tithes, but benefits financially from a false culture of tithe doctrine?
Regarding the bold above, please don’t assume what I think. I’d rather you ask. I actually know that most, in America anyway, have been taught a corrupted version of the law tithe. I suspect you know this as well.
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The point is what the New Testament teaches. Not what people were taught. Way back as an early believer in young years I heard it taught that we are cursed if we do not tithe. But reading Gal 3 shows me otherwise. But that does not mean I cannot give ten per cent apart from the restrictions under law, which is what I teach is an OPTION.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Last edited by mfblume; 02-27-2020 at 08:41 PM.
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02-27-2020, 07:55 PM
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Re: The Crux of the Pro-tithe Argument
BUMP
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
Tithe is literally and ONLY ten percent of ANYTHING. That is what tithe means literally. Come on, Meister, you know that, or you should.
It's like the word DOZEN. It means 12. Nothing more. And there is an old covenant DOCTRINE that ADDS to the term TITHE which is what you are actually thinking of, not TTHE itself. You assume that because the word TITHE is connected in the Old Covenant with a teaching about it, that any time someone says that they "TITHE," you think of the commandment details with what to do with it in all its intricacies under Law. But if someone wants to call their giving by the term TITHE because it is ten percent they always give, then that does not necessarily demand that the commandment "associated with" tithes in the Law has to be adhered to. They know what the word TITHE means when you do not!
So, you need to study more perfectly, since you're a meister about it, what TITHE actually means.
To prove my case:
H4643
מַעַשְׂרָה...... מַעֲשַׂר...... מַעֲשֵׂר
ma‛ăśêr...... ma‛ăśar...... ma‛aśrâh
mah-as-ayr', mah-as-ar', mah-as-raw'
From H6240; a tenth; especially a tithe: - tenth (part), tithe (-ing).
Total KJV occurrences: 32
Notice it says a TENTH AND NOTHING ELSE?
No commandments with what to do with that tenth. It simply means TENTH. Anyone who looks up the term in the Hebrew lexicon would not find one iota of a thought about what to do with the TITHE. TITHE means one-tenth and NOTHING ELSE.
So, these are the detailed TREES you are missing for the forest. While you speak and speak so much about tithes and even have it in your namesake here, you failed to miss the most plain detail of them all. TITHE only means ten per cent and NOTHING ELSE. You've been focusing on the commandment associated with it under law, which is not part of the term itself, and think that it is part and parcel with the definition of the term TITHE. You've done that so much that if someone gives a consistent ten percent of their income and technically and correctly call it tithing, then you hammer them for not tagging on the associated commandments from law, when the use of the term was not invalidated by the tither whatsoever!
In reality, you are not against TITHE, itself, in the church but rather the law ASSOCIATED WITH TITHES.
While people rail on others for taking something from LAW and demanding they're wrong, the fact is they are the ones being legalistic because they fail to realize that if one does not give tithes as a law with its "related" commandments about where it goes, and they proceed to demand people tag on the commandments if they are going to use the term TITHE. You turn around and make legalists out of people when you are supposed to be speaking against legalism of the law. You do not allow people to use the word TITHE to describe the giving of ten per cent to the world of God unless they tag on the commandments from law with that giving, even though the term itself has nothing to do with the commandments and did not require them at all!
How ironic!
While you are against law-keeping, and therefore demand people do not give tithes, your failure to recognize that the word TITHE is fulfilled nicely in someone who gives ten percent of their income without all of the law's tagged-on requirements of what to do with it, you inadvertently are throwing law-keeping into the term TITHE when it has nothing to do with what is done with the currency!
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...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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