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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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  #61  
Old 09-28-2019, 07:43 PM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Agree to disagree,,,
If you don't care to continue the discussion and wish to bow out, why not just state that?

Agreeing to disagree can't be harmonized with the Word. Two cannot walk together unless they be agreed (Amos 3:3), and agreeing to part ways and not walk together isn't much of an agreement, it's just disunity.

Rather, I think you and I could agree to agree on the following:

We each have our mutually exclusive positions on this matter. We can agree with the premise that either only one of us is right or we are both wrong.
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  #62  
Old 09-28-2019, 07:54 PM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
I am glad that I follow good leadership.

You can cue to the 1:49 marker. He is right.

Upon further reflection, I do not think the gentleman in the video or anyone in the UPCI fully believes in and supports "women preachers", regardless of whatever else is claimed. Here is why:

How many women in any positions of leadership with the organization?

Any Executive or General Board members? I haven't heard of any. Any Regional Presbyters? I haven't heard of any. Any District Superintendents? I've never heard of any. Any District Presbyters? I haven't heard of any.

See, when they acclaim female preachers, they usually only mean at the local level behind a church pulpit or occasional ladies conference speaker. They do not mean any position of actual organizational leadership apart from Women's Ministry positions. I mean, where are the up and coming female on fire for God evangelists seeing great results in the UPCI?

So, on the one hand, many affirm with all their hearts the right of women to have full authority as preachers of the Gospel, equal to men in this regard in every way, and yet, when it comes to actual authority, it's nothing but a BIG 0 when it comes to women doing anything. Granted it is usually admitted that husbands and wives are one flesh, so all of these leaders who are married receive major support and help from their wives, even to the point of some claiming they co-lead with their spouses.

But that isn't the same.

So, which is it? Either grant women full organizational rights and privileges of positional authority on equal footing with men, or stop claiming the "Bible Says So" when it comes to women preachers.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 09-29-2019 at 02:23 PM.
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  #63  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:47 AM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

I believe the UPCI is more for women preachers than any other group that I know...however I could be wrong...
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  #64  
Old 09-29-2019, 09:58 AM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
Agree to disagree,,,
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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
A "small" part regarding Priscilla and Lydia? Do you think that they accomplished a "small" part?

What about Acts 21:8-9? "Leaving the next day, we reached Caesarea and stayed at the house of Philip the evangelist, one of the Seven.
He had four unmarried daughters who prophesied.

His "whole" family dedicated to the service of God. I am sure he probably had sons who were also dedicated as well, but not mentioned.

There are many people who were never mentioned at all, men or women. Yet, the women mentioned show that they were also included in the work of the ministry. I thank God for that.

No need to argue as I believe Sister Alvear would say. She goes about her every day being used of God in every way. And I am sure she thinks nothing of it, as it is her calling and her duty.




2 Cor 12:9-10 "My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ's power may rest on me. That is why, for Christ's sake, I delight in weaknesses, in insults, in hardships, in persecutions, in difficulties. For when I am weak, then I am strong." (NIV)
Ι will quote my post if you want to read it (Bible only).
I dont know who is downplay the role of a woman today . (God downplay a woman? by wants you with a quiet precious spirit? / or Satan, that want you make noises in the pulpit like a man? and men whisper with the modern gay voice "praise the Lord sister"???? sister the problem is why some think "downplay" your role by not allowing you be what you really are. As a waman you have a real job (not a role to play) and as woman who wants to labour you already have enough to care, you dont want to put a "be better than Mike" game.
I mean downplay is when someone still from you the things that Lord given you and fools you that you have to be "like men" or something antagonistic.
Sister, we (men and women) wrestling and fighting together for our salvation and the love of the Truth.
But this does not mean you have to do exactly what a man makes. God put a different between man and woman and this is not "downplay" , that is find your real self, your real destiny.
Our Modern Society hides your uniqueness and the diversity that God gave us/
Sister is a benefit be a real holy woman of God!!!
(if you want read the verses i quote on the previous and read them for yourself. Let "commentators" and theologians go to hell alone, you can only see how God want you as a holy woman in Scriptures)
Peace to you.
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  #65  
Old 09-30-2019, 06:18 AM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
If you don't care to continue the discussion and wish to bow out, why not just state that?

Agreeing to disagree can't be harmonized with the Word. Two cannot walk together unless they be agreed (Amos 3:3), and agreeing to part ways and not walk together isn't much of an agreement, it's just disunity.

Rather, I think you and I could agree to agree on the following:

We each have our mutually exclusive positions on this matter. We can agree with the premise that either only one of us is right or we are both wrong.
So, your point is that I am not in unity unless I agree with everything YOU say is right?

You once stated that it was your opinion that the Bible doesn’t bare out the oneness of God. We pretty much stopped walking in unity with that statement as I don’t share that opinion.
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  #66  
Old 09-30-2019, 06:38 AM
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Talking Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Upon further reflection, I do not think the gentleman in the video or anyone in the UPCI fully believes in and supports "women preachers", regardless of whatever else is claimed. Here is why:

How many women in any positions of leadership with the organization?

Any Executive or General Board members? I haven't heard of any. Any Regional Presbyters? I haven't heard of any. Any District Superintendents? I've never heard of any. Any District Presbyters? I haven't heard of any.

See, when they acclaim female preachers, they usually only mean at the local level behind a church pulpit or occasional ladies conference speaker. They do not mean any position of actual organizational leadership apart from Women's Ministry positions. I mean, where are the up and coming female on fire for God evangelists seeing great results in the UPCI?

So, on the one hand, many affirm with all their hearts the right of women to have full authority as preachers of the Gospel, equal to men in this regard in every way, and yet, when it comes to actual authority, it's nothing but a BIG 0 when it comes to women doing anything. Granted it is usually admitted that husbands and wives are one flesh, so all of these leaders who are married receive major support and help from their wives, even to the point of some claiming they co-lead with their spouses.

But that isn't the same.

So, which is it? Either grant women full organizational rights and privileges of positional authority on equal footing with men, or stop claiming the "Bible Says So" when it comes to women preachers.
“In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on my servants—men and women alike— and they will prophesy.” Acts 2:18

Try to make your interpretation of “women keep silence in church” work for you now.

I don’t know what this scripture or preaching has to do with becoming a Bishop, Superintendent, etc. Are you trying to place women in a position they are not called and don’t desire just to make a point? Most sensible women understand their role and what it means to usurp a man’s authority. She can very well preach without doing that.
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  #67  
Old 09-30-2019, 06:39 PM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
So, your point is that I am not in unity unless I agree with everything YOU say is right?

You once stated that it was your opinion that the Bible doesn’t bare out the oneness of God. We pretty much stopped walking in unity with that statement as I don’t share that opinion.
No, that is not my point at all. My point is you wanted to agree to disagree, and that is antithetical to how the Scriptures define agreement.

As far as unity is concerned, I think it's a case by case basis, where believers agree and don't agree. Where they do, they have unity in that area. Where they do not agree, they do not have unity in that area. See AFF as the best example of this.

That doesn't necessarily mean two people cannot, overall, be in general unity, that is, the unity of the Spirit, even if some specifics aren't lined up exactly the same.

Lastly, I did not state that the Bible doesn't bare out the oneness of God. I said I do not think that oneness, as it has been described and laid out, fully accounts for all that the Scriptures teach regarding the nature of God and His Son.

I went on to add that I think the oneness position has a lot right, more than most, but that I do not think it is all the way there.

See the difference between what I actually wrote and meant versus what you claimed I wrote and thought I meant? They are not the same.
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  #68  
Old 09-30-2019, 06:48 PM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
“In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on my servants—men and women alike— and they will prophesy.” Acts 2:18

Try to make your interpretation of “women keep silence in church” work for you now.

I don’t know what this scripture or preaching has to do with becoming a Bishop, Superintendent, etc. Are you trying to place women in a position they are not called and don’t desire just to make a point? Most sensible women understand their role and what it means to usurp a man’s authority. She can very well preach without doing that.
But that's not what you claimed earlier. You said, without proof, I might add, that women were out there with Paul doing the same things as he was. That means preaching, evangelizing, performing the signs and wonders of an apostle, baptizing, planting churches, and etc.

So then, some, many, or maybe even most???, think Junia was a female apostle, in the UPCI. If she was an apostle, she was elevated above every other gift and role in the church, including pastor, elder, presbyter, prophet, bishop, and etc (1 Corinthians 12:28). And if elevated above, then allowed to do anything and all things else besides.

Therefore, if she was an apostle, she is proof that women have every right to hold every other position or be used in every other gift, in the church of today. And this is what, by full implication, everyone who thinks Junia was an apostle, must believe, and yet, no women anywhere in the org functioning in this way. Why not?

If women can be apostles per Junia, as so many claim, and if Priscilla taught Apollos the Word as so many claim, then there is no usurpation of a man's role.

No cake and eat it, too, then. The two views are logically inconsistent with each other, and therefore mutually exclusive. And yet both views are routinely claimed and acclaimed to justify the doctrine held by the official leadership of the UPCI.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 09-30-2019 at 07:36 PM.
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  #69  
Old 09-30-2019, 07:13 PM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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...See AFF as the best example of this....
I think it is important that I point to this again and make a fuller appeal and explanation regarding what I mean and how it applies to unity.

I have engaged with every currently posting, regular member still here. And many who no longer do. I have disagreed openly with almost all of them, but have also openly agreed with many if not most, or perhaps even all of them.

To say that just because there have been disagreements from me regarding something or even some things someone has posted means I don't think I am "in unity" with them is, as far as I am concerned, a mistake.

It's a case by case basis, that is determined by the merits of the case.

Some examples:

I think Michael the Disciple is correct about his view of the Logos, but Esaias and Evangelist Benincasa don't seem to agree there. And yet Mike and Esaias both agree on head-coverings for women, and the resurrection and annihilation of the dead, and I agree with both of them on these two issues, (they are the ones who convinced me!) yet I don't agree with Esaias regarding his historicist views of eschatology. But I also don't agree with Mike's view of eschatology, either. Rather, I agree with Brother Benincasa's eschatology (he is one of the ones who convinced me!).

So, with all this agreement and disagreement, am I in unity with these three or not? I do not presume to speak for them, but as for me, I think, yes, these three men are brothers in the Christ, and if somehow we should meet and spend a day together, I would count myself blessed and not feel at all unwelcome or not at home in the Lord with them.

As for other members, I could go down the list and tick off points of agreement or disagreement. I suppose we all could. Are we not in unity then, unless we all agree on everything?

So, it's not about whether anyone agrees with ME about anything. Because I don't suppose any of us agree together on everything. Maybe only we agree on several things, or just a few, or perhaps even only one thing. My litmus test, if you will, is obedience to the Gospel. If I don't agree there with someone, then my ability to feel true unity with them runs from endangered to non-existent, depending on other factors.

And that might even be too lenient for some. Or even too restrictive. Doesn't change things for me, though, regardless of what anyone feels.

What I care about is truth and the defense thereof. Prove me wrong on what I believe and I will convert on the spot. But offer up a reason to convert and convince me I am wrong. Feelings can be left out of it as far as I am concerned. The facts of the Holy Scriptures, the spiritual truths we all love and are seeking to understand, are all that matter to me.

My guess everyone here can agree with that. And if so, unity in at least this realm, has been achieved, regardless of any other specific potential disagreements.
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Last edited by votivesoul; 09-30-2019 at 07:44 PM.
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  #70  
Old 09-30-2019, 07:28 PM
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Re: Women Keeping Silence: What I Teach

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Originally Posted by Pressing-On View Post
“In those days I will pour out my Spirit even on my servants—men and women alike— and they will prophesy.” Acts 2:18

Try to make your interpretation of “women keep silence in church” work for you now.
Sister, are you reading what I write, or just sounding off?

I have more than once, including in the opening post of this thread, stated that women have every right to pray and prophesy (comfort, exhort, and edify; 1 Corinthians 14:3) in the church, as long as it is done decently and in order according to the Scriptures. This requires speaking out loud to all present.

So, you clearly aren't reading fully, or if you are, aren't attempting to fully understand my position, because the statement you made above has no bearing upon anything I've so far written.

From Post #1:

Quote:
It doesn't mean she can't even say "hi" or "Praise the Lord" in worship, or pray when the saints pray. Rather, she can and should pray, and she can and should prophesy, as the Spirit allows, in the decency and order God ordains.
From Post #11:

Quote:
Testifying among the saints is to bear witness and share something the Lord has done in a person's life. As such, testimonies exhort, edify, or comfort those who hear them, and as such, fall under the realm of prophesying, which women are allowed by the Lord to do in the church.
From Post #58:

Quote:
All the text states is that they prophesied. This is something I have already affirmed in this thread is allowable according to the Holy Scriptures per 1 Corinthians 11. So, there is no "aha" moment here. So, good for them. They were used by the Holy Spirit to exhort, comfort, and edify the people of God.
This is now the fourth time, once already including a reminder, about the correctness of women prophesying in church, and yet you still miss it?

Why? What are you aiming for?
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