Book of Enoch, 1 Peter, 2nd Peter, Jude parallels

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I am an apostolic Christian. And yes, I hold to the continuous historical approach to prophecy.

Making remarks like "preterist admiration society" out of context of the discussion isn't going to do much except turn people away from whatever it is you think you have to say.

I don't remember if I shared this with you or with someone else. I investigated Historicism for a short time. I drafted my own historicist outline of prophecy and shared it here on AF. I'll present it again. Please share your thoughts.

The Revelation:

Chapter 1 Vision Begins

Chapters 2-3 The Seven Church Ages (Seven Church Ages)

Chapter 4 Vision of Heaven

Chapter 5 The Lamb Takes the Scroll
A. Scroll is God’s writing of divorcement against Israel.

Chapter 6 The Seven Seals (Judgments on Jerusalem)
A. Fist Seal: Military Advances against Israel by Vespasian.
B. Second Seal: War against Jerusalem lead by Titus
C. Third Seal: Famine in Judea and food shortages during Roman Siege
D. Fourth Seal: Pestilence resulting from Famine and Roman Siege.
E. Fifth Seal: Cry of the Martyrs for judgment on Pharisaical Israel
F. Sixth Seal: Destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD.
G. Seventh Seal: Preparation for Trumpets (Judgments against Rome).

Chapter 7 The 144,000 and the Great Multitude (Advent of the Church Dispensation)
A. 144,000 First Fruits: First Century Jewish Christians who fled to Pella.
B. Innumerable Multitude: The Gospel’s harvest among the Gentiles

Chapter 8 The Seven Trumpets (Judgments on Roman Empire)
A. Seventh Seal: Preparation for Trumpets (Judgment upon Rome)
B. First Trumpet: Hoards of Goths destroy Roman Country sides 408-410
C. Second Trumpet: Vandals Raid Roman Sea Ports
D. Third Trumpet: Huns Raid Roman river ways.
E. Fourth Trumpet: Odoacer invades Rome

Chapter 9 Plague of Locusts (THE RISE OF ISLAM - 150 Year Jihad & Rise of the Turks)
A. Fifth Trumpet: Mohammad rises to Power. Saraceans wage war 612-762 AD.
B. Sixth Trumpet: Turks wage war 1281-1672 AD.

Chapter 10 The Angel and the Little Book
A. Sufferings of the Faithful
B. Seven Thunders: Unknown

Chapter 11 The Two Witnesses and the Pit Beast (Spirit and Power of Moses & Elijah, Revived The Holy Roman Empire)
A. Two Witnesses: Spirit of the prophets operating in the Church Militant.
B. Pit Beast: Holy Roman Authorities
C. The 1260 Days: 1,260 Years of Testimony under Holy Roman Oppression
D. Death of the Two Witnesses: The Church’s seeming defeat
E. Seventh Trumpet (The Resurrection): Apostolic Revival (possibly the Rapture at the end of days).

Chapter 12 The Woman in the Wilderness (Church Persecuted)
A. The Woman: God’s covenant people (Israel)
B. The Dragon: Pagan Rome (Satan)
C. Birth of the man child: Birth of Christ
D. Ascension of the man child: Christ’s ascension.
E. Fleeing Woman: God’s Covenant People (Now the Church, the Israel of God)
F. 1,260 Days fleeing in the wilderness: 1,260 Years of persecution by Roman Catholic authorities.
G. “Wings of a Great Eagle” given unto the Woman: Flight to the Americas for religious freedom.
H. Flood out of the Dragon’s mouth: Persecution (False Doctrine)
I. Earth Opens it’s mouth: Divine Assistance given to the Woman

Chapter 13 The Beast/False Prophet and 666 (The Holy Roman Empire/Papacy)
A. Beast from the Sea - Rome
B. Deadly wound: Fall of Rome 476 AD
C. Deadly Wound is healed (554 AD)
Revival of Ancient Rome (The Holy D. D. Roman Empire is born 554-1814 AD).
a. Seven Heads - Incarnations of the Beast
b. Ten Horns: (Imperial Circles)
i. Austrian
ii. Bavarian
iii. Burgundian
iv. Electoral Rhenish
v. Franconian
vi. Lower Rhenish Westphalian
vii. Lower Saxon
viii. Swabian
ix. Upper Rhenish
x. Upper Saxon
D. Given authority for 42 Months (1,260 days): Allowed to Rule for 1,260 Years (554 AD – 1814 AD)
E. Wages war against the Saints: Inquisitions and Persecutions.
F. Lamblike Beast: Papacy
a. Horns Like a Lamb: Looks Christian
b. Speaks like a Dragon: False Doctrine (Trinitarianism/Catholicism)
c. Calls fire down from Heaven: False Miracles
d. Make an Image: Idolatry (Saint Worship, icons, images)
e. Image Speaks: Demonic influence from idols (crying statutes and the like).
f. Causes all who will not worship idols (Catholicism) to be put to death: Inquisitions.
g. Mark of the Beast: Symbolic of Submission to Papal Authority. MAY BE YET FUTURE.

Chapter 14 The Harvest (Revival & Ingathering)
A. Angels/Messengers preach the Gospel: Apostolic Revival
B. Harvest: Revival and/or Rapture
C. Winepress: Final Judgment

Chapter 16 The Seven Vials (Final Sequence of Wrath)
A. First Vial: Global Pestilence
B. Second Vial: Global Bloodshed at sea or Global Pollution of Seas
C. Third Vial: Global Bloodshed upon waterways or Freshwater Pollution
D. Fourth Vial: Global Persecution or Global Warming
E. Fifth Vial: Global Spiritual Darkness and Mental Distress
F. Sixth Vial: Global War centered in the Middle East
G. Seventh Vial: Opening of Judgment on Babylon

Chapter 17 The Eighth Beast and Harlot (Revived Holy Roman Empire/Papacy or Jerusalem)
A. Eighth Beast: Revived Holy Roman Empire (Modern Europe and Western Powers)
B. Harlot (Ecumenical Movement headed by Papacy or Jerusalem)

Chapter 18 The Judgment of the Great Harlot:
A. “Come out of her my people” (Admonition to obey the Gospel or possibly the Rapture)
B. Collapse of Papal power in the Holy Roman Empire and/or Destruction of the City: Destruction of Vatican City (Papacy) or Jerusalem (Judaism)

Chapter 19 The Return of Christ On a White Horse (Christ Returns Unexpectedly)

Chapter 20 The Millennium (Christ Rules the Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years) and Final Judgment.

Chapter 21 The New Jerusalem (The Eternal State)

Chapter 22 Closing Visions

Olivet Discourse:

Luke 21:1-23 The First Century Persecutions Woes and Judgment on Jerusalem.
Luke 21:24-36 Brief Synopsis of the Entire Church Age Culminating in Christ’s Return.

Matthew 24:1-22 The First Century Persecutions Woes and Judgment on Jerusalem.
Matthew 24:23-51 Brief Synopsis of the Entire Church Age Culminating in Christ’s Return.

Pauline Son of Perdition:

II Thessalonians 2:3-8 The "son of perdition" is the Papacy asserting itself and sitting in the "temple of God" (the Church) saying that he is God (or the Vicar of Christ) on Earth or future final Antichrist.

In this understanding, it is possible that prophetically speaking, we're currently in The Harvest or The Seven Vials.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Sean

Chris, I would like your opinion of this(on topic) link.

Got a minute?

I don't think we can put much stock in the book of Enoch.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I am an apostolic Christian. And yes, I hold to the continuous historical approach to prophecy.

Making remarks like "preterist admiration society" out of context of the discussion isn't going to do much except turn people away from whatever it is you think you have to say.

Here's something interesting that I discovered in my discussions with folks...

Since Historicism teaches that a great deal of prophecy has already been fulfilled (as does Preterism, aka Partial Preterism), some classify Historicism as a form of Preterism.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I don't remember if I shared this with you or with someone else. I investigated Historicism for a short time. I drafted my own historicist outline of prophecy and shared it here on AF. I'll present it again. Please share your thoughts.

The Revelation:

Chapter 1 Vision Begins

Chapters 2-3 The Seven Church Ages (Seven Church Ages)

Chapter 4 Vision of Heaven

Chapter 5 The Lamb Takes the Scroll
A. Scroll is God’s writing of divorcement against Israel.

Chapter 6 The Seven Seals (Judgments on Jerusalem)
A. Fist Seal: Military Advances against Israel by Vespasian.
B. Second Seal: War against Jerusalem lead by Titus
C. Third Seal: Famine in Judea and food shortages during Roman Siege
D. Fourth Seal: Pestilence resulting from Famine and Roman Siege.
E. Fifth Seal: Cry of the Martyrs for judgment on Pharisaical Israel
F. Sixth Seal: Destruction of Jerusalem 70 AD.
G. Seventh Seal: Preparation for Trumpets (Judgments against Rome).

Chapter 7 The 144,000 and the Great Multitude (Advent of the Church Dispensation)
A. 144,000 First Fruits: First Century Jewish Christians who fled to Pella.
B. Innumerable Multitude: The Gospel’s harvest among the Gentiles

Chapter 8 The Seven Trumpets (Judgments on Roman Empire)
A. Seventh Seal: Preparation for Trumpets (Judgment upon Rome)
B. First Trumpet: Hoards of Goths destroy Roman Country sides 408-410
C. Second Trumpet: Vandals Raid Roman Sea Ports
D. Third Trumpet: Huns Raid Roman river ways.
E. Fourth Trumpet: Odoacer invades Rome

Chapter 9 Plague of Locusts (THE RISE OF ISLAM - 150 Year Jihad & Rise of the Turks)
A. Fifth Trumpet: Mohammad rises to Power. Saraceans wage war 612-762 AD.
B. Sixth Trumpet: Turks wage war 1281-1672 AD.

Chapter 10 The Angel and the Little Book
A. Sufferings of the Faithful
B. Seven Thunders: Unknown

Chapter 11 The Two Witnesses and the Pit Beast (Spirit and Power of Moses & Elijah, Revived The Holy Roman Empire)
A. Two Witnesses: Spirit of the prophets operating in the Church Militant.
B. Pit Beast: Holy Roman Authorities
C. The 1260 Days: 1,260 Years of Testimony under Holy Roman Oppression
D. Death of the Two Witnesses: The Church’s seeming defeat
E. Seventh Trumpet (The Resurrection): Apostolic Revival (possibly the Rapture at the end of days).

Chapter 12 The Woman in the Wilderness (Church Persecuted)
A. The Woman: God’s covenant people (Israel)
B. The Dragon: Pagan Rome (Satan)
C. Birth of the man child: Birth of Christ
D. Ascension of the man child: Christ’s ascension.
E. Fleeing Woman: God’s Covenant People (Now the Church, the Israel of God)
F. 1,260 Days fleeing in the wilderness: 1,260 Years of persecution by Roman Catholic authorities.
G. “Wings of a Great Eagle” given unto the Woman: Flight to the Americas for religious freedom.
H. Flood out of the Dragon’s mouth: Persecution (False Doctrine)
I. Earth Opens it’s mouth: Divine Assistance given to the Woman

Chapter 13 The Beast/False Prophet and 666 (The Holy Roman Empire/Papacy)
A. Beast from the Sea - Rome
B. Deadly wound: Fall of Rome 476 AD
C. Deadly Wound is healed (554 AD)
Revival of Ancient Rome (The Holy D. D. Roman Empire is born 554-1814 AD).
a. Seven Heads - Incarnations of the Beast
b. Ten Horns: (Imperial Circles)
i. Austrian
ii. Bavarian
iii. Burgundian
iv. Electoral Rhenish
v. Franconian
vi. Lower Rhenish Westphalian
vii. Lower Saxon
viii. Swabian
ix. Upper Rhenish
x. Upper Saxon
D. Given authority for 42 Months (1,260 days): Allowed to Rule for 1,260 Years (554 AD – 1814 AD)
E. Wages war against the Saints: Inquisitions and Persecutions.
F. Lamblike Beast: Papacy
a. Horns Like a Lamb: Looks Christian
b. Speaks like a Dragon: False Doctrine (Trinitarianism/Catholicism)
c. Calls fire down from Heaven: False Miracles
d. Make an Image: Idolatry (Saint Worship, icons, images)
e. Image Speaks: Demonic influence from idols (crying statutes and the like).
f. Causes all who will not worship idols (Catholicism) to be put to death: Inquisitions.
g. Mark of the Beast: Symbolic of Submission to Papal Authority. MAY BE YET FUTURE.

Chapter 14 The Harvest (Revival & Ingathering)
A. Angels/Messengers preach the Gospel: Apostolic Revival
B. Harvest: Revival and/or Rapture
C. Winepress: Final Judgment

Chapter 16 The Seven Vials (Final Sequence of Wrath)
A. First Vial: Global Pestilence
B. Second Vial: Global Bloodshed at sea or Global Pollution of Seas
C. Third Vial: Global Bloodshed upon waterways or Freshwater Pollution
D. Fourth Vial: Global Persecution or Global Warming
E. Fifth Vial: Global Spiritual Darkness and Mental Distress
F. Sixth Vial: Global War centered in the Middle East
G. Seventh Vial: Opening of Judgment on Babylon

Chapter 17 The Eighth Beast and Harlot (Revived Holy Roman Empire/Papacy or Jerusalem)
A. Eighth Beast: Revived Holy Roman Empire (Modern Europe and Western Powers)
B. Harlot (Ecumenical Movement headed by Papacy or Jerusalem)

Chapter 18 The Judgment of the Great Harlot:
A. “Come out of her my people” (Admonition to obey the Gospel or possibly the Rapture)
B. Collapse of Papal power in the Holy Roman Empire and/or Destruction of the City: Destruction of Vatican City (Papacy) or Jerusalem (Judaism)

Chapter 19 The Return of Christ On a White Horse (Christ Returns Unexpectedly)

Chapter 20 The Millennium (Christ Rules the Millennial Kingdom for 1,000 years) and Final Judgment.

Chapter 21 The New Jerusalem (The Eternal State)

Chapter 22 Closing Visions

Olivet Discourse:

Luke 21:1-23 The First Century Persecutions Woes and Judgment on Jerusalem.
Luke 21:24-36 Brief Synopsis of the Entire Church Age Culminating in Christ’s Return.

Matthew 24:1-22 The First Century Persecutions Woes and Judgment on Jerusalem.
Matthew 24:23-51 Brief Synopsis of the Entire Church Age Culminating in Christ’s Return.

Pauline Son of Perdition:

II Thessalonians 2:3-8 The "son of perdition" is the Papacy asserting itself and sitting in the "temple of God" (the Church) saying that he is God (or the Vicar of Christ) on Earth or future final Antichrist.

In this understanding, it is possible that prophetically speaking, we're currently in The Harvest or The Seven Vials.

Yes, I remember seeing it in another thread. I'd have to find that thread (I don't want to derail this one into a sidetrack).

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Here's something interesting that I discovered in my discussions with folks...

Since Historicism teaches that a great deal of prophecy has already been fulfilled (as does Preterism, aka Partial Preterism), some classify Historicism as a form of Preterism.

The term "preterism" means a scheme of interpretation whereby the bulk (or all) of prophecy was fulfilled not merely in the past, but primarily in the first century.

EVERYONE believes there are at least some prophecies that have been fulfilled in th epast, so they would be "preterist" in the most generic sense of the term. And both historicists and partial preterists believe at least some prophecies remain to be fulfilled in the future, so they would be "futurist" in at least the most generic sense of the term.

But futurism, preterism, and historicism as theological terms refer to specific approaches to prophecy that are all three mutually exclusive (hence the three distinct terms). All three share various layers of commonality, but they are not at all the same. Honestly, the only reason "some" classify historicism as preterism is because "some" don't understand what either preterism or historicism actually are. 100 years ago practically NOBODY would be confusing them. But these days a lot of people are used to only hearing abut one form of interpretation. So when they come across something else, and get a label for it, everything else after that which does not conform to their original belief is placed under that new label.

Also, "some" are just being polemic, and assigning an adversarial position to what they consider a discreditable label.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Yes, I remember seeing it in another thread. I'd have to find that thread (I don't want to derail this one into a sidetrack).

Oh, good point. Sorry. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The term "preterism" means a scheme of interpretation whereby the bulk (or all) of prophecy was fulfilled not merely in the past, but primarily in the first century.

EVERYONE believes there are at least some prophecies that have been fulfilled in th epast, so they would be "preterist" in the most generic sense of the term. And both historicists and partial preterists believe at least some prophecies remain to be fulfilled in the future, so they would be "futurist" in at least the most generic sense of the term.

But futurism, preterism, and historicism as theological terms refer to specific approaches to prophecy that are all three mutually exclusive (hence the three distinct terms). All three share various layers of commonality, but they are not at all the same. Honestly, the only reason "some" classify historicism as preterism is because "some" don't understand what either preterism or historicism actually are. 100 years ago practically NOBODY would be confusing them. But these days a lot of people are used to only hearing abut one form of interpretation. So when they come across something else, and get a label for it, everything else after that which does not conform to their original belief is placed under that new label.

Also, "some" are just being polemic, and assigning an adversarial position to what they consider a discreditable label.

Amen. I was just mentioning that some do see Historicism as a form of Preterism.

[Aquila]

I believe that the book of Enoch is mythology. However, a lot of mythology is based around specific events in history. For example, great kings can often be mythologized centuries after their reigns. Enoch might be mythologizing a specific event depicted in the Bible that is so ancient there wasn't much commentary about it.

That causes me to wonder why, while discussing the books of Enoch, 1 & 2 Peter, and Jude, ... no one is bringing up Genesis 6? I know that it is a controversial passage. But... if the ancients viewed the passage as depicting a grievous angelic transgression against man... we'd see a direct reference to the "sin" committed by the angels that sinned and have an idea as to why these specific angels were bound, without even needing to ponder the mythology that might have been built around this ancient event found in the Book of Enoch.

The issue of how one interprets Genesis 6 is actually at the heart of how one might understand this topic.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that the book of Enoch is mythology. However, a lot of mythology is based around specific events in history. For example, great kings can often be mythologized centuries after their reigns. Enoch might be mythologizing a specific event depicted in the Bible that is so ancient there wasn't much commentary about it.

That causes me to wonder why, while discussing the books of Enoch, 1 & 2 Peter, and Jude, ... no one is bringing up Genesis 6? I know that it is a controversial passage. But... if the ancients viewed the passage as depicting a grievous angelic transgression against man... we'd see a direct reference to the "sin" committed by the angels that sinned, without even needing to ponder the Book of Enoch.

I believe that is in fact addressed in this thread, at least somewhat. There was also another thread somewhere about Genesis 6 and what was going on there with the "sons of God" that tied into this thread and its subject. So we haven't been ignoring Genesis 6, it's just that this discussion has spanned several threads over several months so there isn't a single source thread or discussion to put it all together in one spot.

Personally, I believe the Jewish (and pagan myths) concerning "fallen angels" or "gods" coming down and mating with women and producing demigods or "giants" or what have you is a paganised superstitious legendizing of the Genesis 6 account. Meaning the events of Genesis 6 have survived in altered corrupted forms amongst pagans. These pagan ideas were introduced into Judaism during the Babylonian captivity and intertestamental period (and possibly earlier), and have been introduced into popular Christian belief as well. This apparently began in the first century (as my posts here address), and the apostles were trying to warn the brethren about allowing these paganising gnostic theories and myths from infiltrating the church.

I do not believe we should interpret ancient Biblical history by looking to pagans and gnostics and mystical speculators for the "real understanding". It should be the other way around. We use the Bible to explain the origins of many pf the pagan myths, not allowing the pagan myths to explain the "back story" to the Biblical data.

Otherwise, that's like saying the legends of Troy and the Iliad represent ancient realities and people, and there really was an Achilles, but that Achilles really was supernaturally endowed with near invincibility except for a spot on his heel. It just strikes me as backward.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I believe that is in fact addressed in this thread, at least somewhat. There was also another thread somewhere about Genesis 6 and what was going on there with the "sons of God" that tied into this thread and its subject. So we haven't been ignoring Genesis 6, it's just that this discussion has spanned several threads over several months so there isn't a single source thread or discussion to put it all together in one spot.

Personally, I believe the Jewish (and pagan myths) concerning "fallen angels" or "gods" coming down and mating with women and producing demigods or "giants" or what have you is a paganised superstitious legendizing of the Genesis 6 account. Meaning the events of Genesis 6 have survived in altered corrupted forms amongst pagans. These pagan ideas were introduced into Judaism during the Babylonian captivity and intertestamental period (and possibly earlier), and have been introduced into popular Christian belief as well. This apparently began in the first century (as my posts here address), and the apostles were trying to warn the brethren about allowing these paganising gnostic theories and myths from infiltrating the church.

I do not believe we should interpret ancient Biblical history by looking to pagans and gnostics and mystical speculators for the "real understanding". It should be the other way around. We use the Bible to explain the origins of many pf the pagan myths, not allowing the pagan myths to explain the "back story" to the Biblical data.

Otherwise, that's like saying the legends of Troy and the Iliad represent ancient realities and people, and there really was an Achilles, but that Achilles really was supernaturally endowed with near invincibility except for a spot on his heel. It just strikes me as backward.

I understand that. But those are all presuppositions. The story is much older than any pagan myth. And, it appears to even explain that whatever transpired is the origin of most of those pagan demigod myths. Many interpretations that seem to deny supernatural events are grounded in the heavy rationalism that influenced theology in both Christianity and Judaism. Why would such an interpretation be any more based on pagan-like mythological notions than the stories of the great flood itself, the sun standing still, Jacob physically wrestling with an angel, or accounts were an angel is described as slaying thousands? All of these things are ultra-supernatural, and appear just as "mythological" to the critical reader. The truth is that the Bible is full of the supernatural. Why would such an idea be any different?

When I try to drop all presupposition and read Genesis 6, it disturbs me all over again. lol These are the questions that come to my mind as I read it:

Genesis:6:1-4
1 And it came to pass, when men (Mankind?) began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them (Mankind?),
2 That the sons of God (Bene-ha-Elohim, angels? The exact phrase is typically used to denote angels throughout the OT, see: Job 1:6; Job 2:1; Job 38:7; Dead Sea Scrolls 4QDtj and 4QDtq; "angels of God" (αγγελων θεου) in the LXX) saw the daughters of men (Mankind?) that they were fair; and they (The sons of God?) took them wives of all which they chose.
3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
4 There were giants (Nephilim, meaning "giants"?) in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God (Bene-ha-Elohim, angels?) came in unto the daughters of men (Mankind?), and they (Daughters of men?) bare children to them (The sons of God?), the same (Nephilim, or "giants"? Why would the union of normal human beings produce offspring who were notable in any way, especially warranting a title such as “giants”?) became mighty men which were of old, men of renown (Legendary figures popularized in pagan myths?).

And since those questions arise when I drop all presupposition, I find myself thinking once again that there's something here that just doesn't clean up so easily by claiming one of the many theories that would see the "sons of God" as mere human beings. To me, every effort to force the notion that the "sons of God" were human beings seems to stress the passage. But if I had to choose a "human" theory... I'd say that the "sons of God" was a kind of label for rulers who claimed divinity. But even that even stresses the passage a bit, because their children wouldn't be different enough to warrant the ancient legends of demigods found throughout paganism.

These pagan ideas were introduced into Judaism during the Babylonian captivity and intertestamental period (and possibly earlier),

Do we have any commentary originating prior to these periods that would present an older interpretation? Do we just beg that it must have existed, though we really don't see an older interpretation? If we no reference of an older interpretation, how can we say for certain that these ideas were "introduced"? What if they were just being recorded as passed down from antiquity?