Witch of Endor

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by coksiw

I believe it was a vision given by God to the witch to rebuke Saul. No actual Samuel spirit involved.
The Hebrew behind “hath a familiar spirit”, is better translated as “who is a necromancer”. The context speaks of a “profession” or “ability”, not of a condition as in “who is possessed”.

I believe the Greek version uses the word "ventriloquist"?

She has an 'ob, and divines by the 'ob. Usually translated familiar spirit. The word apparently means both the spirit power of a Canaanite necromancer or medium, and also the tool they used which if I am not mistaken was either a pot, jar, or wineskin which represented the Underworld and out of which the "elohim" or ancestor-gods would arise to commune with the shaman.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I believe the Greek version uses the word "ventriloquist"?

Are you referring to ἐνγαστριμύθους?

Originally Posted by Esaias

She has an 'ob, and divines by the 'ob. Usually translated familiar spirit. The word apparently means both the spirit power of a Canaanite necromancer or medium, and also the tool they used which if I am not mistaken was either a pot, jar, or wineskin which represented the Underworld and out of which the "elohim" or ancestor-gods would arise to commune with the shaman.

Like Joseph?

Genesis 44:5

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Esaias

A few questions:

1. If it was really Samuel, what body does he have? He appears as "an old man in a robe/mantle", and speaks, so obviously he has a body. So what body is it? The resurrection hadn't occurred between his death and his appearance at Endor, so it can't be the resurrection body. So, what body did he have?

It says she sees gods elohim, or theos coming from the earth. from what the narrator tells us, it is part of her vision of an old man in a mantel.

Originally Posted by Esaias

2. How come nobody saw him except the witch? Was he hiding in the pantry? Or was she having a vision?3. If she was having a vision, who gave it to her? The familiar spirit? Or God?

Narrator tells us that see is asked to bring up Samuel. When she does she is frightened by what happens next. No one else in the vicinity sees or experiences what she does. Who gave her the vision? We aren't told that by the writer.

Originally Posted by Esaias

4. If she was having a vision, then doesn't that mean it was a vision, and not the actual dead Samuel back for one more round?

Again, all we have is what the narrator is telling us the reader. It was Samuel. Whether she had a vision, got a letter (as in Elijah) or had bad gas. We are told by the guy with pen and scroll, that it WAS SAMUEL. He could of written down they thought it was Samuel? A demon came to her as Samuel? Or, even have a second character in the verse say it was Samuel and not the Bible writer. As in the divining cup of Joseph which allows us to get around Joseph using Egyptian divination. But we don't have that, we have the author of 1st Samuel narrating the story to us the reader, and the author telling us it was Samuel. It is a one time event. An event to bring the prophet and the king together for the last time. To tell the fear filled hypocrite king, that he and sons will be dead. It has no power or gravity that Saul gets informed of this by a woman with case of bad gas.

[Barb]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

It says she sees gods elohim, or theos coming from the earth. from what the narrator tells us, it is part of her vision of an old man in a mantel.



Narrator tells us that see is asked to bring up Samuel. When she does she is frightened by what happens next. No one else in the vicinity sees or experiences what she does. Who gave her the vision? We aren't told that by the writer.



Again, all we have is what the narrator is telling us the reader. It was Samuel. Whether she had a vision, got a letter (as in Elijah) or had bad gas. We are told by the guy with pen and scroll, that it WAS SAMUEL. He could of written down they thought it was Samuel? A demon came to her as Samuel? Or, even have a second character in the verse say it was Samuel and not the Bible writer. As in the divining cup of Joseph which allows us to get around Joseph using Egyptian divination. But we don't have that, we have the author of 1st Samuel narrating the story to us the reader, and the author telling us it was Samuel. It is a one time event. An event to bring the prophet and the king together for the last time. To tell the fear filled hypocrite king, that he and sons will be dead. It has no power or gravity that Saul gets informed of this by a woman with case of bad gas.

And that is why she was so shocked that she cried out. The witch by very nature of her moniker was familiar with the demonic... that wouldn't have scared her. She was used to slight of hand and attempting to fool the less discerning... she wouldn't have been frightened of her own 'magic.'

So even if one dismisses the narrative in the Scripture, logically, it had to have been the real deal.

It was Samuel...

[Esaias]

1 Samuel 28:11-12 KJV
Then said the woman, Whom shall I bring up unto thee? And he said, Bring me up Samuel. [12] And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.

Why is everybody assuming she was "shocked"? And "frightened" by the apparent arrival of Samuel? It just says she cried out with a loud voice and was scared ABOUT THE FACT THAT HER CLIENT WAS SAUL. Nothing about being spooked by a ghost. Her crying with a loud voice just means she yelled. Looks to me like she was more upset about having Saul for a client than having Samuel for a seance.

[Esaias]

Anyways, I think most here in the thread have agreed it was a vision. Maybe not agreeing on the source or purpose of the vision, but a vision nonetheless. (Saul wasn't seeing anything, the witch was.)

Which means yes it WAS Samuel... in the vision. Meanwhile Sammy is dead and resting until the resurrection.

[Monterrey]

Just curious, what resurrection was Sammy waiting for?

[Amanah]

The first resurrection which occurs at the last trumpet
Immediately prior to the millennial reign.

1 Corinthians 15:52
English Standard Version
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

Revelation 20:6
English Standard Version
6 Blessed and holy is the one who shares in the first resurrection! Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and they will reign with him for a thousand years.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Monterrey

Just curious, what resurrection was Sammy waiting for?

The one we all look forward to.

Hebrews 11:32-40 KJV
And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: [33] Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [34] Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. [35] Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: [36] And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: [37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; [38] (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. [39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

[Amanah]

Originally Posted by Esaias

The one we all look forward to.

Hebrews 11:32-40 KJV
And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets: [33] Who through faith subdued kingdoms, wrought righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, [34] Quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, waxed valiant in fight, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. [35] Women received their dead raised to life again: and others were tortured, not accepting deliverance; that they might obtain a better resurrection: [36] And others had trial of cruel mockings and scourgings, yea, moreover of bonds and imprisonment: [37] They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; [38] (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth. [39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.