Most complex explanation of the Godhead ever!

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen

Neither one of those. That everything was made that was created with the Logos in mind. He made the world with the Logos as the blueprint, the same as Him telling Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."

The text didn't show pre existance of Jeremiah, but forethought. The same as the Logos that's how Jesus can say in John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was." But God being the one who worked the beginning from the end, being the God who was, who is, and is to come He exists in all those time periods simultaneously had glorified Him already. Nothing is hidden from His sight.

To go in explaination past that will be impossible; because I may can understand it fully in thought, expressing it fully is impossible in human language.

Jeremiah wasn't said to have prophesied from the beginning. Paul said God made all things by the Son, which implies actual activity on the Son's part. Which only makes sense when we take into account the fact that the Son is the Word made flesh, and it was the Word by which all things were made. And as Genesis reveals, God made all things by His Word (And God said, etc).

The Word is God revealing Himself, God's self-revelation to the creation. So the Word is more than just "an idea in the Divine Mind", for a logos is not merely the mental concept behind a word, but the word itself, in actuality. Does the idea of the Logos include the Divine Plan? Sure. But it goes much deeper than that.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Jeremiah wasn't said to have prophesied from the beginning. Paul said God made all things by the Son, which implies actual activity on the Son's part. Which only makes sense when we take into account the fact that the Son is the Word made flesh, and it was the Word by which all things were made. And as Genesis reveals, God made all things by His Word (And God said, etc).

The Word is God revealing Himself, God's self-revelation to the creation. So the Word is more than just "an idea in the Divine Mind", for a logos is not merely the mental concept behind a word, but the word itself, in actuality. Does the idea of the Logos include the Divine Plan? Sure. But it goes much deeper than that.

I see the creative power of the Logos. But you are saying you believe in a actual pre existant divine son? I agree with somethings you said, but on this I don't. I can see that God can be visible and invisible, but the title of son I can't see until the fullness of time came.

I will even go with what Michael said about God being visible and invisible, but the Son is a title of relationship. Which I don't see Him being born at any point, until Bethelehams manger. Nor begotten.

[Michael The Disciple]

So if the Son did not pre exist in any way before Bethlehem except as a prophesied plan what is the difference between your version of Oneness doctrine and Unitarianism?

As for me I believe the Son pre existed as the Logos. The Logos was God. Else it would seem Oneness doctrine is denying the various verses that tell us the Son is the Creator. It would make it seem both the Trinitarians and the Arians are staying with scripture while we were denying it.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

So if the Son did not pre exist in any way before Bethlehem except as a prophesied plan what is the difference between your version of Oneness doctrine and Unitarianism?

As for me I believe the Son pre existed as the Logos. The Logos was God. Else it would seem Oneness doctrine is denying the various verses that tell us the Son is the Creator. It would make it seem both the Trinitarians and the Arians are staying with scripture while we were denying it.

I'm saying as the Son, which is a point of relationship. Because where was He begotten or birthed before Betheleham? I mean we can point to Psalms 2:7 "I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee." But when did it happen? What day was that?

You are saying I am bleeding over into unitarianism. While you are saying the same thing a trinitarian would say. Which a lot of trinitarians don't even believe. The pre existant son as the son was first brought forth by Origen. That was a late development also.

Because in Isaiah God says many times He created alone and by Himself, with no other beside Him. I mean to understand anything Paul or John are saying in the New Testament, has to be understood by what is brought forth in the Old Testament especially in Isaiah. Read from chapter 40-46. In light of those things it had to be forethought reason, plan, like It is in most passages in the New Testament.

What's the difference between the Logos and Rhema

[Michael The Disciple]

The same as the Logos that's how Jesus can say in John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

The glory the WORD had with God in the beginning:


Proverbs 8:22-31

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

I see this as the same thing as this.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and God was the word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:1-3

[Michael The Disciple]

If Ye Know These Things. Chapter 15

Elder Ross Drysdale Pentecostal Assemblies Of The World.

PRE-EXISTENCE AS "THE WORD OF GOD"
The idea of the Son existing "ideally" in the mind of God does explain a number of texts, especially those I have cited. However there are also a number of scriptures that speak of Christ in the Old Testament that cannot be explained on this basis. We read of God "who created all things by Jesus Christ" (Eph. 3:9); and God who "hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... by whom also he made the worlds " (Heb. 1:2); and Christ Himself speaks of the glory He had with the Father "before the world was" (John 17:5). The answer to these texts lie in the scripturally revealed fact that the Son of God did Pre-exist, but not as the Son of God, for that would be the same as having a Pre-existed male human being. No, the Son Pre-existed as "the Word of God" ("the Logos" in Greek). He who was the Word of God in the Old Testament, became the Son of God in the New Testament. The Son of God, the male person born of Mary, did not pre-exist as a Son, per se. That would mean a pre-existent human being. But that does not negate the fact the He who was the Son of God in His earthly sojourn, had existed before in a different form!

THE MYSTERY OF THE LOGOS
John speaks of the Word (Logos in Greek) who was "in the beginning with God" and yet "was God." What was the Logos, or the Word of God?

As we have seen, the Son of God was God's visible body, form, or Temple in the New Testament times. God dwelt in Christ His Son and used Him as His own body. Whoever saw Christ, saw the Father, for God was in Christ. The Bible also teaches that God had a visible body or form in Old Testament times as well. It was not a human body of flesh, but it was a glorified body. And just as God dwelt in the human body of the Son of God after Bethlehem, so also did he dwell in the celestial body of the Word of God before Bethlehem. Whether in the Old Testament as the Word of God or in the New Testament as the Son of God, Christ has always been the visible Temple of the invisible Spirit. A Oneness "God in Christ" exists in both Testaments.

THE VOICE OF THE LORD
The glorious "Word" was the body God used when he "walked" with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening. Naturally He would have to use some form or body to fellowship with them. They couldn't "walk" with an omnipresent Spirit!

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
The "Voice of the Lord" is the same as "the Word of God". It was God's vehicle of visual communication with His creation.
"THE BODY OF HEAVEN"
In the time of Moses, the Elders of Israel were given a view of the Logos.

Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
They could not have seen God in his Spirit nature, for a Spirit is necessarily invisible. Yet they saw God's feet, and described his visible form as the "body of heaven." God has only had two bodies. In the Old Testament times it was the Body of Heaven, but in the New Testament times it was the Body of Humiliation (Phil. 2:8), which the world crucified and pierced!
"THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD"
The Word of God was God's visible image in the Old Testament times. He was the "brightness of his glory and the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3). He was the "image of the invisible God and the firstborn of every creature" (Col. 1:15). When men saw Him they saw God:

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Did he see God as Spirit? Of course not. A Spirit doesn't have a "face". What he saw was the Word, who was God's visible image and as such did have a "face."
"THE FORM OF GOD"
God had a visible form in the Old Testament times. Jesus spoke of God's "shape" as well as His "voice" (John 5:37). Paul mentions the "form of God" in Philip. 2:6. A pagan king once saw the "form" that was "like" the Son of God (Daniel 3:25). This "form" was the "Word of God." This "form of God" was later changed into the "form of Man" at the Incarnation for the purpose of redemption (Phil. 2:2-8).

THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND WAS GOD
Now we understand the meaning of John's prologue. The Word, or God's visible form, was "with God," just as our "bodies" are "with us" wherever we are. And yet the Word "was God." Because God dwelt in that "form," used it as His visible Temple, it can be said that the Word "was God." Wherever this Form appeared, It was God Himself appearing. The same situation obtains in the New Testament dispensation. Christ, the Son of God is also God's body or form. The Father is said to be "with" Christ (John 8:29), and also to be "in" Him (John 10:38), and Christ is thereby said to be God (John 20:28). Whoever saw Christ, saw God (John 14:8-10). God in Christ makes Christ God. God in the Word, made the Word God.

It was the "voice" of God, speaking out of his "shape" or visible image (John 5:37) that said: "Let there be light, and there was light." This is how the worlds were created by the Word of God (Heb. 11:3).

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
God's glorious visible Form, the Word or Logos, spoke and creation resulted.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And this Word was eventually changed into flesh and became the "Son of God". "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).
JOHN PATERSON COMMENTS
John Paterson was one of the most insightful writers on Oneness topics. His early work, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ," was used as a Godhead textbook in the infancy of the Oneness Movement. He summarized the doctrine of the Logos in very clear and logical terminology. he writes:

"How did God show Himself to Abraham, eating and drinking before him? (Gen. 18:6-8,33); or How did Moses see his back parts? (Ex 33:23), or how did the elders of Israel see the God of Israel, and did eat and drink? (Ex. 24:10,11). In the answer to these questions lies the secret of the Mystery of God: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made' (John 1:1-3). In the beginning! That refers to Genesis 1:1, which reads, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'
"Now what is a 'word'? Is it not the expression of an inward abstract thought in a substantial concrete form. It means this in English, but as a matter of fact, the Greek word Logos means not only the expression of the thought, but also the inward thought itself. So we conclude that the Word was the visible expression of the invisible God; in other words, the invisible God embodied in visible form; and not only this, but the word was, essentially nothing less than the Eternal God Himself, as it is written 'The Word was God' " (John 1:1). (John Paterson, God in Christ Jesus, p. 9-10).

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

If Ye Know These Things. Chapter 15

Elder Ross Drysdale Pentecostal Assemblies Of The World.

PRE-EXISTENCE AS "THE WORD OF GOD"
The idea of the Son existing "ideally" in the mind of God does explain a number of texts, especially those I have cited. However there are also a number of scriptures that speak of Christ in the Old Testament that cannot be explained on this basis. We read of God "who created all things by Jesus Christ" (Eph. 3:9); and God who "hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son... by whom also he made the worlds " (Heb. 1:2); and Christ Himself speaks of the glory He had with the Father "before the world was" (John 17:5). The answer to these texts lie in the scripturally revealed fact that the Son of God did Pre-exist, but not as the Son of God, for that would be the same as having a Pre-existed male human being. No, the Son Pre-existed as "the Word of God" ("the Logos" in Greek). He who was the Word of God in the Old Testament, became the Son of God in the New Testament. The Son of God, the male person born of Mary, did not pre-exist as a Son, per se. That would mean a pre-existent human being. But that does not negate the fact the He who was the Son of God in His earthly sojourn, had existed before in a different form!

THE MYSTERY OF THE LOGOS
John speaks of the Word (Logos in Greek) who was "in the beginning with God" and yet "was God." What was the Logos, or the Word of God?

As we have seen, the Son of God was God's visible body, form, or Temple in the New Testament times. God dwelt in Christ His Son and used Him as His own body. Whoever saw Christ, saw the Father, for God was in Christ. The Bible also teaches that God had a visible body or form in Old Testament times as well. It was not a human body of flesh, but it was a glorified body. And just as God dwelt in the human body of the Son of God after Bethlehem, so also did he dwell in the celestial body of the Word of God before Bethlehem. Whether in the Old Testament as the Word of God or in the New Testament as the Son of God, Christ has always been the visible Temple of the invisible Spirit. A Oneness "God in Christ" exists in both Testaments.

THE VOICE OF THE LORD
The glorious "Word" was the body God used when he "walked" with Adam and Eve in the cool of the evening. Naturally He would have to use some form or body to fellowship with them. They couldn't "walk" with an omnipresent Spirit!

Gen 3:8 And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.
The "Voice of the Lord" is the same as "the Word of God". It was God's vehicle of visual communication with His creation.
"THE BODY OF HEAVEN"
In the time of Moses, the Elders of Israel were given a view of the Logos.

Exo 24:10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
They could not have seen God in his Spirit nature, for a Spirit is necessarily invisible. Yet they saw God's feet, and described his visible form as the "body of heaven." God has only had two bodies. In the Old Testament times it was the Body of Heaven, but in the New Testament times it was the Body of Humiliation (Phil. 2:8), which the world crucified and pierced!
"THE IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD"
The Word of God was God's visible image in the Old Testament times. He was the "brightness of his glory and the express image of his person" (Heb. 1:3). He was the "image of the invisible God and the firstborn of every creature" (Col. 1:15). When men saw Him they saw God:

Gen 32:30 And Jacob called the name of the place Peniel: for I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved.
Did he see God as Spirit? Of course not. A Spirit doesn't have a "face". What he saw was the Word, who was God's visible image and as such did have a "face."
"THE FORM OF GOD"
God had a visible form in the Old Testament times. Jesus spoke of God's "shape" as well as His "voice" (John 5:37). Paul mentions the "form of God" in Philip. 2:6. A pagan king once saw the "form" that was "like" the Son of God (Daniel 3:25). This "form" was the "Word of God." This "form of God" was later changed into the "form of Man" at the Incarnation for the purpose of redemption (Phil. 2:2-8).

THE WORD WAS WITH GOD, AND WAS GOD
Now we understand the meaning of John's prologue. The Word, or God's visible form, was "with God," just as our "bodies" are "with us" wherever we are. And yet the Word "was God." Because God dwelt in that "form," used it as His visible Temple, it can be said that the Word "was God." Wherever this Form appeared, It was God Himself appearing. The same situation obtains in the New Testament dispensation. Christ, the Son of God is also God's body or form. The Father is said to be "with" Christ (John 8:29), and also to be "in" Him (John 10:38), and Christ is thereby said to be God (John 20:28). Whoever saw Christ, saw God (John 14:8-10). God in Christ makes Christ God. God in the Word, made the Word God.

It was the "voice" of God, speaking out of his "shape" or visible image (John 5:37) that said: "Let there be light, and there was light." This is how the worlds were created by the Word of God (Heb. 11:3).

Psa 33:6 By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth.
God's glorious visible Form, the Word or Logos, spoke and creation resulted.
John 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
And this Word was eventually changed into flesh and became the "Son of God". "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" (John 1:14).
JOHN PATERSON COMMENTS
John Paterson was one of the most insightful writers on Oneness topics. His early work, "The Revelation of Jesus Christ," was used as a Godhead textbook in the infancy of the Oneness Movement. He summarized the doctrine of the Logos in very clear and logical terminology. he writes:

"How did God show Himself to Abraham, eating and drinking before him? (Gen. 18:6-8,33); or How did Moses see his back parts? (Ex 33:23), or how did the elders of Israel see the God of Israel, and did eat and drink? (Ex. 24:10,11). In the answer to these questions lies the secret of the Mystery of God: 'In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made' (John 1:1-3). In the beginning! That refers to Genesis 1:1, which reads, 'In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.'
"Now what is a 'word'? Is it not the expression of an inward abstract thought in a substantial concrete form. It means this in English, but as a matter of fact, the Greek word Logos means not only the expression of the thought, but also the inward thought itself. So we conclude that the Word was the visible expression of the invisible God; in other words, the invisible God embodied in visible form; and not only this, but the word was, essentially nothing less than the Eternal God Himself, as it is written 'The Word was God' " (John 1:1). (John Paterson, God in Christ Jesus, p. 9-10).

I'll agree with that, that was right on! It's hard to put it into correct words.

[Michael The Disciple]

You are saying I am bleeding over into unitarianism. While you are saying the same thing a trinitarian would say. Which a lot of trinitarians don't even believe. The pre existant son as the son was first brought forth by Origen. That was a late development also.

So can you tell me what the difference is in the word/thought doctrine compared to Unitarianism?

No Trinitarian believes what I believe. That in the beginning God formed an image of himself. Not another God person but Gods own form. He put some of his eternal life into the form and took up residence there. The rest of his eternal life was everywhere in and out of creation.

The form would be himself.

YAH said:

Isaiah 43:10

10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

God formed himself before anything else.

The first thing he ever made was an image or body for himself to dwell in. In this mode of being he is the firstborn of every creature. The beginning of the creation of God.

In his other mode of being he is the Creator of all.

Origens Son was "eternally begotten". Another distinct person who was always being begotten.

[1ofthechosen]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

The glory the WORD had with God in the beginning:


Proverbs 8:22-31

22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.

23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:

26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.

27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:

28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:

30Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;

31Rejoicing in the habitable part of his earth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

I see this as the same thing as this.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and God was the word. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him and without him was not anything made that was made. John 1:1-3

Proverbs chapter 8 is speaking of Wisdom though, which is spoken forth of feminine qualities.

Matter of fact in the Sepatugint what word is used for wisdom in Proverbs 8:1? Just wondering?

[Michael The Disciple]

Because in Isaiah God says many times He created alone and by Himself, with no other beside Him. I mean to understand anything Paul or John are saying in the New Testament, has to be understood by what is brought forth in the Old Testament especially in Isaiah.

True. Watch this.

Isaiah 44:24

24Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

Col. 1:13-17

13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

Isaiah says YAH made all things BY MYSELF.
Paul says all things were made by THE SON.....Who is said to be the image of the invisible God.

Gods self was his image. Not yet known as the Son but in his plan....if Paul said he created by the Son the Son was HIMSELF.