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10-29-2018, 10:21 PM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
The scripture in Colossians has exactly the same meaning as the one in Hebrews.
Heb 1:1-2
1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
God made the worlds BY HIS SON.
But who IS his Son at creation. Watch closely.
1:3
3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
A personal intermediary made the worlds according to Paul. Not merely a thought, plan or concept.
Paul here calls this intermediary his "Son".
Was Paul wrong? Did he forget to write that the worlds were made by a thought, plan, or concept?
Then he would have to explain how that impersonal thought, plan, or concept called HIS SON was the express image of HIS PERSON!
He didnt bother. He just said the Son was the brightness of his glory the EXPRESS IMAGE (not another person) of HIS person.
The Son that was used by God to make the worlds was a person. HIS PERSON. His visible image. Same thing Paul taught the Colossians.
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No Paul's not wrong just your understanding. Please do a word study it backs up John 1. The world was made in Him for Him with Him as the purpose. Tell me what the world dia in Greek is saying in 16 when it says "ALL THINGS WERE MADE "BY" (DIA)HIM AND FOR HIM."
And here in verse 20 "And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by (dia)him to reconcile all things unto himself; by (dia) him, I say, whether they be things in l earth, or things in heaven." This isn't the word "en" which is translated mostly as in every other time like the first time it's used in verse 16 where it says "For by him were all things created, that are in heaven." This word "DIA" IS DEFINED AS "THROUGH, THE GROUND OR REASON BY WHICH SOMETHING IS OR IS NOT DONE, BY REASON OF, ON ACCOUNT OF, BECAUSE OF FOR THIS REASON,THEREFORE,ON THIS ACCOUNT". Which completely lines up with John 1:1-3 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. [2] The same was in the beginning with God. [3] ALL THINGS WERE MADE BY (GUESS WHAT "DIA" USED AGAIN) HIM; and without him was not any thing made that was made".
Jesus pre incarnate was a concept, or a thought. But at that time that thought and plan was just the Almighty God who was, and is, and Is to come. The I am, He who will be what HE WILL be! While the man Christ Jesus was made of a woman, God always had a body He could manifest if needed. That's false doctrine that teaches that God was somewhere way away that He couldn't relate with man. All through my Bible He always had a way. That's false philosophy that has been given out throughout the ages that has no biblical backing. Rethink that idea its not biblical, because your using that fallacy as the building block to build this pre incarnate created image concept.
And guess what Mike I got to.looking at Hebrews 1:1-2 guess what I found again? "God, who at a sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by (en) the prophets, [2] Hath in these last days spoken unto us by (en) his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, BY (DIA) WHOM ALSO HE MADE THE WORLDS."
Mike all 3 passages are one and the same and show forethought and reasoning, that He was Master Architect but also the Master Plan, that awaited for the fullness of time to come. Before that He was God Almighty and we can see in the Book of Revelations after He was glorified He was just God Almighty. How it was after so it was before, for He is the God that is, that was, that is to come the Almighty! The Bible interpreted itself.
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Last edited by 1ofthechosen; 10-29-2018 at 10:50 PM.
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10-30-2018, 09:24 AM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos
The most well known Oneness teacher in America teaches this great truth.
Irvin Baxter hits a portion of the Logos truth starting at 44:25
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10-30-2018, 10:16 AM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
The most well known Oneness teacher in America teaches this great truth.
Irvin Baxter hits a portion of the Logos truth starting at 44:25
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Ok so the Logos was formed and created? Any rendering of Logos as anything but a thought, or reasoning is grammatical abuse. Especially in light of what I've shown the Bible Teaches in not only Colossians 1:16 also in 1:20 Hebrews 1:2 and again in John 1:3. Which by the use of word "dia" show forethought and preeminence not chronologically but in purpose and reason as a blueprint of sorts.
There is not one passage that supports God creating a finite form in the beggining so that He could create the worlds or interact with man, angels or anything else. All that is at best speculation, and is false doctrine the Bible never teaches that so it's extra biblical at it's core and I don't care who said it. Anyone saying God created a body besides for the man Christ Jesus as we see talked about in those terms in passages like Hebrews 10:5 which the text clearly says "Wherefore when he cometh into the world", so this is speaking of the incarnation not a pre existant Logo's, is wrong.
I'm going to keep my opinions to myself of this minister besides to say he's only the most well known Oneness preacher in America because of a Eschatology magazine he has been producing for close to 30 years. I would even venture and say most his followers are active trinitatarians,who don't pay any attention to this matter at all. He's well known for a whole different subject not like Elder David K. Bernard who is world renown as a scholar on the exact subject at hand. And what Elder Bernard teaches is backed up totally by scripture in the places I already covered. And I venture to say he's silent on certain things because scripture itself is silent so he sticks to that. The rest of that creating a body first before anything else Philosophy, is just that, ONLY A PHILOSOPY.
And btw I can see the pre existant Logos perfectly but not this aspect of it. I plead with you to look this over once again.
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Last edited by 1ofthechosen; 10-30-2018 at 10:25 AM.
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10-30-2018, 10:26 AM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen
Ok so the Logos was formed and created? Any rendering of Logos as anything but a thought, or reasoning is grammatical abuse. Especially in light of what I've shown the Bible Teaches in not only Colossians 1:16 also in 1:20 Hebrews 1:2 and again in John 1:3. Which by the use of word "dia" show forethought and preeminence not chronologically but in purpose and reason as a blueprint of sorts.
There is not one passage that supports God creating a finite form in the beggining so that He could create the worlds or interact with man, angels or anything else. All that is at best speculation, and is false doctrine the Bible never teaches that so it's extra biblical at it's core and I don't care who said it. Anyone saying God created a body besides for the man Christ Jesus as we see talked about in those terms in passages like Hebrews 10:5 which the text clearly says "Wherefore when he cometh into the world", so this is speaking of the incarnation not a pre existant Logo's, is wrong.
I'm going to keep my opinions to myself of this minister besides to say he's only the most well known Oneness preacher in America because of a Eschatology magazine he has been producing for close to 30 years. I would even venture and say most his followers are active trinitatarians,who don't pay any attention to this matter at all. He's well known for a whole different subject not like Elder David K. Bernard who is world renown as a scholar on the exact subject at hand. And what Elder Bernard teaches is backed up totally by scripture in the places I already covered. And I venture to say he's silent on certain things because scripture itself is silent so he sticks to that. The rest of that creating a body first before anything else Philosophy, is just that, ONLY A PHILOSOPY.
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If you want to remain in a modern Apostolic Pentecostal box its your choice. Plenty of scripture has been given. Just trying to help
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10-30-2018, 10:42 AM
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Isaiah 56:4-5
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Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: SOUTH ZION
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos
Chosen,
The Logos was a thought? That’s it?
Don’t quote Greek to me. I know the Greek for Logos.
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10-30-2018, 11:07 AM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos
Quote:
Originally Posted by houston
Chosen,
The Logos was a thought? That’s it?
Don’t quote Greek to me. I know the Greek for Logos.
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In the context of John 1:1-3 and the other passages like Colossians 1:16, and 20, and Hebrews 1:2 yes He was, God was the reasoning by which He created the worlds. In that He was the first born and pre eminant before all creation and the reasoning behind it. The blueprint. In context of The passages stated. But no He wasn't just a thought or plan because ethe plan became flesh and dwelt among us. But in the beginning the plan was with God because the plan was God. So anything that happened before the incarnation is just dealing with God Almighty Himself not the plan the Messiah. Which are One and the same the Messiah was the image of the invisible God that became flesh. But before that God could manifest a body that was not fully human because He wasn't born of a woman.
My problem with what MTD is saying is dealing totally with that before God created anything else He created a body to relate with creation.
But no He wasn't only a plan but in context of what is being spoken of, ( Colossians 1:16, 20, John 1:1-3, Hebrews 1:2) at that point yes. At that point there was only the Almighty God no Messiah that became flesh and dwelt amongst us, which was God HIMSELF, and which was the blueprint by which HE Created the worlds.
__________________
Check out my new Podcast, and YouTube Channel:
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This is a One God, Holy Ghost Filled, Tongue Talkin', Jesus Name podcast where it's all in Him!
Apostolic Truth! His Truth Is Marching On!
SUBSCRIBE!
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10-30-2018, 11:18 AM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
If you want to remain in a modern Apostolic Pentecostal box its your choice. Plenty of scripture has been given. Just trying to help
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Did you do any research on what I even offered or are you going to let Irvin Baxter be the ultimate judge? I've showed much scriptural proof, even showed you by definition what the passages you are quoting are implying. Not something I feel or whatever but absolute facts. And you are going with a concept that is nowhere stated in the Bible about God creating a Body to relate with His creation before He created anything else?
If God is light, light is 2 fold. One part no one can see, and the reflection everyone can see. This is a perfect example of God considering this a biblical comparison. God didn't have to create anything to relate with creation, just be what He is He's the source of the light, nothing has to be created that's the premise I don't agree with. You and Irvin Baxter said it, and I refute that specifically.
John 1:1 totally refutes this, thinking it over just by Baxter's definition of Logo's. Let's look how that translates "In the beginning was the expression, and the expression was with God, and the expression was God." There is no room for the creation of the Expression when laid out and fully inspected. Because verse 2 says "The same was in the beginning with God." Which is saying there was never a point when the other didn't exist. So that in itself refutes this whole idea of yours and Baxter.
__________________
Check out my new Podcast, and YouTube Channel:
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Last edited by 1ofthechosen; 10-30-2018 at 11:57 AM.
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10-30-2018, 02:40 PM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos
Logos ??
He was with God in the beginning. The life appeared; we have seen it and testify to it, and we proclaim to you the eternal life, which was with the Father and has appeared to us.
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10-30-2018, 05:11 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ofthechosen
Did you do any research on what I even offered or are you going to let Irvin Baxter be the ultimate judge? I've showed much scriptural proof, even showed you by definition what the passages you are quoting are implying. Not something I feel or whatever but absolute facts. And you are going with a concept that is nowhere stated in the Bible about God creating a Body to relate with His creation before He created anything else?
If God is light, light is 2 fold. One part no one can see, and the reflection everyone can see. This is a perfect example of God considering this a biblical comparison. God didn't have to create anything to relate with creation, just be what He is He's the source of the light, nothing has to be created that's the premise I don't agree with. You and Irvin Baxter said it, and I refute that specifically.
John 1:1 totally refutes this, thinking it over just by Baxter's definition of Logo's. Let's look how that translates "In the beginning was the expression, and the expression was with God, and the expression was God." There is no room for the creation of the Expression when laid out and fully inspected. Because verse 2 says "The same was in the beginning with God." Which is saying there was never a point when the other didn't exist. So that in itself refutes this whole idea of yours and Baxter.
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One Of:
What you dont get is I have been researching this for 39 years. I have heard your view. It was the first one I studied coming out of Trinitarianism. It was enough to ignite my curiosity, but not enough to close the deal.
When in search I heard the version by John Eckstat of the UPC. I was amazed! Oneness doctrine taught where one did not have to deny the obvious. Yes The Trins, Twins, and Arians were right about there being an intermediary being. Multiple scripture backed it up.
But now I could see that the intermediary being was NOT another God person. It was the invisible form of the invisible God! God himself in another mode of being! I embraced the truth and saw the greatness of Jesus more than ever!
I have debated, discussed, taught many Trins and other groups. I have seen other oneness attempt it. The other groups LOVE IT when Oneness believers roll out the stail powerless "thought and plan" concept. Why? Because up til that point in the discussion the Oneness has them on the ropes.
When the scriptures are brought up where the Son or "Logos" is shown to be PERSONAL in creation, the Oneness responds with the very thick dodge about this was a mere "plan". The Trins rip the person to shreds with:
Colossians 1
Hebrews 1:1-3
Eph. 3:9
John 1:1-3
Rev. 3:14
It is painful to see. Dont ever try to go into word warfare with a hardened well studied Trin with the "thought, plan" model.
Yes I have researched the doctrine I teach. I use the plain scriptures that are there. Your posts seem mostly to be of rationalization philosophy. It seemed SHORT on scripture. No matter I have heard it before.
I was pleasantly surprised to have found out this year that Bro. Baxter believes this. He is one of a number of Oneness Ministers who apparently have held onto this great truth passed down from the Apostles.
Your point he was in the beginning fails. The beginning means the beginning of something. What? Creation. The Logos was with God in Creation because it was the first thing God created. From his OWN ETERNAL SPIRIT he formed a glorious spiritual body.
Then he POSSESSED it with his Spirit. With some of his eternal life.
1 John 1:1-2 That which was from the beginning which we have heard which we have seen with our eyes and our hands have handled of the WORD OF LIFE For the LIFE WAS MANIFESTED and we have seen, and bear witness and show unto you that eternal life which was WITH THE FATHER and was manifest to you.
Psalms 8:22-29
Quote:
22The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
23I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
24When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
25Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
26While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
27When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
28When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
29When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
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The word in John 1 is the same as the wisdom in Proverbs 8:22
Quote:
Verse 22 Stearns Complete Jewish Bible
Adonai made me as the beginning of his way the first of his ancient works.
Verse 22 Holy Scriptures Jewish Publication Society
The Lord made me as the beginning of his way, the first of his works of old.
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This "word of life" was more than a "plan". It was Gods eternal life possessing a form that was later named "Jesus Christ".
Eph. 3:9
And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery which from the beginning of the world has been hid in God who created all things by HIS THOUGHT AND PLAN?
Wait! Did you say that Paul?
WOOPS! No you did not.
You said God created all things by Jesus Christ!
Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 10-30-2018 at 05:16 PM.
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10-30-2018, 05:33 PM
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Re: Oneness And Pre Incarnate Logos
Did Jesus think of himself as the "wisdom of God"?
Consider this.
Luke 11:49
Therefore also said the WISDOM OF GOD, I will send them prophets and apostles and some of them shall they slay and persecute:
But Jesus said in Matt 23:34
Wherefore I send unto you prophets and wise man and scribes and some of them you shall kill and crucify;
So yes Jesus considered HIMSELF to be the wisdom of God.
Did Paul believe Christ was the WISDOM OF GOD?
1 Cor. 1:24
But unto them which are called both Jews and Greeks CHRIST the power of God and the WISDOM of God.
The wisdom of God was no doubt in the mind of John when he wrote...In the beginning was the word.....
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