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  #11  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:52 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by hometown guy View Post
Paul is speaking to to the people that had already obeyed Acts 2:38. This is an epistle to the saints not a message of salvation to a sinner.
But Paul specifically says that Rom 10:9-10 is the word of faith he preached (presumably to sinners) and is very much about the salvation of sinners.

I agree that we want to go to Acts to see all that they experienced in becoming believers, but we can't with just a wave of the hand dismiss the fact the Paul says salvation/justification occurs in the act of someone believing in their heart and confessing that belief with their mouth. Rom 6 and Acts help us to see that this confession of faith must have occurred in water baptism.
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  #12  
Old 01-14-2019, 03:54 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
Right this is a letter to saints however in chapter 10 Paul is speaking of how Israel would be saved. It is written as if he were speaking to lost Israel of faith in Jesus. We often use the "who is it written to" approach, but the answers we give by that are often not sufficient.
The same message is for Jews and Gentiles: 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
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  #13  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:03 PM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
The same message is for Jews and Gentiles: 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. 13 For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”
Right it is the same for all. My point was basically there is more to it than just Paul is writing to saved people. We need to know why and what and to whom he is writing.
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  #14  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:09 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
Makes sense.
I would add that it's in dying and being resurrected with Christ in the water that the confession of faith is made.
The pattern of the early Church

We have exchanged the waters of baptism for a wooden altar.
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  #15  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:21 PM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

I would agree the greatest confession of faith in Christ is the invocation of the name of Jesus at baptism.
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  #16  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:49 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Right it is the same for all. My point was basically there is more to it than just Paul is writing to saved people. We need to know why and what and to whom he is writing.
Ah, yes indeed.
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  #17  
Old 01-14-2019, 05:13 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
We have exchanged the waters of baptism for a wooden altar.
Well said.

It seems to me that John the Baptist's baptism points to how Christians are to lead others to repent and confess their faith in Christ. His baptism was "a baptism of repentance for the remission of sins" (Luke 3:3). He said, "I baptize you with water for repentance" (Matt 3:11). Together they brought the remission of sins. There was no true repentance without baptism. There was no true baptism without repentance. The people expressed their repentance by being baptized. They were two aspects of one experience of turning to God.

So when Peter said, "Repent and be baptized," he was not, I don't think, talking about two separate things, one to be done at a wooden altar and the other in water. Rather, the water was the context, or location, for the repentance and confession of faith to take place, just as with those who came to John "were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins" (Matt 3:6).
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2019, 05:31 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
I would agree the greatest confession of faith in Christ is the invocation of the name of Jesus at baptism.
I was about to just reply, "I agree!" but I wanted to clarify something. The confession of faith is "Jesus is Lord." When you say "the invocation of the name," are you referring to the one baptized making this confession, or are you referring to the one baptizing invoking the name of Jesus over the one baptized?

I would say in the context of Romans 10, and comparing this to Acts 22:16, it is primarily referring to the person being baptized making the confession, "Jesus is Lord."

Of course, I do believe that the name of Jesus was invoked by the one baptizing as well: "is it not they who blaspheme the excellent name that was invoked over you?" (James 2:7).

Either way, “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved” is a powerful verse about the significance of the name of Jesus. Paul is quoting Joel 2:32, where LORD is Yahweh. Is it correct to say that to call on Jesus' name is to call on Yahweh's name? To call on Jesus is to call on Yahweh.
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  #19  
Old 01-15-2019, 10:10 AM
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

Good points being made!

My two cents...

I believe that we wouldn’t want to leave out Romans 10:11 “ For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.”

It plays in very well with I Peter 1:19 “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

2 Corinthians 1:21 "Now he which establishes us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God; 22 Who has also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts."

Our “dawn” or “new day” does not begin, as a Christian, until we are filled with His Spirit!

Romans 10:11 and I Peter 1:19 was always at the center of their thoughts and behind every act and word they spoke. It was Peter’s message before he got to Acts 2:38.

There are words they spoke in Acts 2:38 and Romans 10:9-10, but there was a foundation behind those words. Peter set that foundation before he got to Acts 2:38.
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  #20  
Old 01-15-2019, 04:43 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Romans 10:9-10 and Salvation

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
In Romans 10:9-10, Paul locates our justification and salvation in having faith that God raised Jesus from the dead and in confessing that Jesus is Lord. This saving faith is something in the heart that is confessed with the mouth.

"9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved."

What is your approach to harmonizing this passage with Acts 2:38? How do they go together?
Verbal confession of Christ with sincere faith in Him is part of repenting and being baptized in His name. Both Romans 10 and Acts 2 are exhortations based upon Joel 2:32 (and Psalm 86:5). Repent and be baptized in His name is referred by Peter as how to "call upon the name of the Lord", whereas Paul refers to "believing in your heart and confessing the Lord Jesus with your mouth". They refer to the same thing, which we see in Acts 22:16. There Paul recounts his own conversion, where he was instructed to be baptised and wash away his sins, calling on the name of Lord.

Therefore, Romans 10 is referring to conversion-salvation with the emphasis on faith and confession of Christ in apposition to continuance in Judaism (as indicated by the context of Romans). Paul is explaining to Christians as well as to enquiring Jews (see Romans 2:17 etc) the fundamental elements of faith and confession of Messiah as being the key distinctive of Christianity (and of salvation).

Peter was however actually exhorting the listeners to do something right then and there, to put into actual action the conceptual ideas expounded by Paul in Romans 10. Paul gives the theory, Peter gives the praxis, if I may oversimplify it a bit.

Quote:
According to the standard UPCI view, salvation is not experienced till you have been baptized in water and baptized in the Spirit, so if this is how you believe, how would you explain that salvation is not in fact experienced in belief/faith and confessing that faith as Paul states here in Romans 10?
The UPC is generally very deficient in giving exhaustive treatments of doctrine. Moreover, the UPC does not have a coherent soteriology in it's official statement of beliefs/Articles of Faith. I will go further and say their official soteriology is in fact unscriptural, and is based entirely on wordsmithing a compromise in order to make possible the original Merger out of which the UPC came into being.

Biblically, salvation is a process, beginning with election in Christ and culminating in the Resurrection and Judgment. Repentance and faith, baptism, and receiving the Spirit are all necessary component parts of the conversion experience ("becoming a Christian"). There is no reconciliation between that and Romans 10 needed. It is only a felt need by those unsure of their own doctrine, in my opinion. As I explained above in this post, confession of Christ takes place in baptism.
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