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  #761  
Old 11-30-2019, 07:27 PM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
My original thought on reading Galatians was that Paul was dealing with a scismatic Jewish or pagan liturgical calendar, because he says they worshipped that which was NOT god and are RETURNING to that worship of the elements of the world.
That is not the context when you start in chapter 3, though. The Chapter 3's law as a schoolmaster that ends with Christ is the same thing as chapter 4 says the time appointed of the Father for the heirs (Israelites) to no longer be under elements (ELEMENTary schooling) of the world but to be redeemed from being under the law.

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Furtger research on my part into the phrase "elements of the world" as well as the historical contexts of what Paul was dealing with have simply corroborated what I already saw. Now, in regard to Colossians, that is a different ball of wax because previously I thought Paul was dealing (once again) with a schismatic Judaism. I have however been studying extensively into Colossians and have concluded we were both wrong about what Paul was dealing with.

So I'm not sure where you were trying to go with that.
I do not believe I was wrong about that because the shadow of the image is the same thing as the shadow of the body.

But we said all that.

But I will say that I am glad you saw that the Colossians reference to the shadow and body was not speaking of the body as if it was the church that judges instead of others. The body speaks of all that Christ is. And what is so wrong about my first view of all of that when you say it is speaking of eternal priesthood? The fact remains that it refers to Christ fulfilling the sabbath days, and how Hebrews 4 corresponds to the REST we find in Hebrews 10 where we cease from our works and come to the high priest for grace to help in the time of need, which is what I've always stated, especially when I discussed the sabbath rest in Christ's work after which He sat at that place as high priest to whom we come for rest.
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Last edited by mfblume; 11-30-2019 at 07:47 PM.
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  #762  
Old 12-01-2019, 09:41 PM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

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But I will say that I am glad you saw that the Colossians reference to the shadow and body was not speaking of the body as if it was the church that judges instead of others. The body speaks of all that Christ is. And what is so wrong about my first view of all of that when you say it is speaking of eternal priesthood? The fact remains that it refers to Christ fulfilling the sabbath days, and how Hebrews 4 corresponds to the REST we find in Hebrews 10 where we cease from our works and come to the high priest for grace to help in the time of need, which is what I've always stated, especially when I discussed the sabbath rest in Christ's work after which He sat at that place as high priest to whom we come for rest.
I don't recall saying I saw the Colossians reference ... was not speaking of the body as if it was the church that judges instead of others? Let me clarify: Paul is admonishing the Colossian believers to not allow the Errorists to judge them (the believers) in certain things, but rather the body of Christ (the church). The church is to judge such matters, not outsiders. The shadow of things to come is NOT the Colossian practices (as I previously thought) but the judging being done by the Errorists. That, I believe, is what Paul is most likely referring to as being a shadow of coming things. I could be wrong, and might have been correct in my earlier understanding that the Colossian practices are a shadow of coming things. But the closer I look at it, the more the context, and flow of thought, and the actual grammar, lead me to believe Paul is saying the criticism of the Errorists against the Colossian praxis is a shadow of things coming. That is, they (the criticisms, or "judgments") are a forerunner of future trends.

Which, interestingly, turns out to be exactly the case historically.

Hebrews says the law is a shadow of GOOD things to come, and defines those good things as the ministry of Christ's priesthood and its results, effects, benefits, etc. The law being spoken of is the law of sacrifices and those things particularly associated with the Levitical priesthood. They could not take away sins, but Christ's death can and does. His priesthood REPLACES the Levitical priesthood, and His offering replaces the Levitical offerings. And this replacement is intimated in the old testament scriptures.

To extrapolate from that the idea that the fourth commandment is no longer obligatory is an unfounded leap. Such a change, replacement, or abolition of the Sabbath is not taught by Paul, nor can it be inferred from the old testament scriptures. The law that is changed and replaced is not the moral law, but the Levitical law of offerings and priestly regulations.

Ceasing from one's works means ceasing from sin, and ceasing from "deeds of the law" (a well known Jewish idiom referring to performance of sectarian halachic regulations, as used in pre Christian, 1st century, and later Jewish literature, such as the Qumran writings nd other Jewish writings). It is "repentance from dead works", including both works that produce death (sin, violations of God's commandments which include the fourth commandment) as well as works that are done to cover sins and provide righteousness which cannot actually produce such results. Ceasing from one's own works does NOT mean "ceasing to obey God's commandments". One cannot enter God's rest by disobeying God's commandments. This was the very reason Israel of old could not enter His rest! (Unbelief, Biblically, includes disobedience.)

So Hebrews is NOT teaching and end to Sabbath keeping for God's people. In fact, as Peter inadvertently pointed out a few posts back) it explicitly says Sabbath-keeping remains for the people of God. God never intended Israel to abandon Sabbath-keeping upon exercising true sincere faith in God, that is preposterous. To suggest He expects Israel to abandon Sabbath-keeping upon exercising faith in Messiah is just as preposterous. We do not come to Christ so we can "rest" from obedience to God's commandments, so we can "rest" from following His ways. Quite the opposite: we come to Messiah to find rest from OUR ways, from doing OUR thing, from obeying SELF. And yes, that means the Sabbath-breaker comes to Messiah and finds rest from his Sabbath-breaking.

(Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
Jeremiah:6:16)
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Last edited by Esaias; 12-01-2019 at 09:46 PM.
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  #763  
Old 12-01-2019, 09:52 PM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

On Galatians, let me just say that not being under the schoolmaster and being redeemed from the law does not mean released from moral obligation to obey God's commandments. So any conclusion that follows that line of reasoning is necessarily false and in error. As for the liturgical calendar mentioned in Galatians, the research is conclusive that it is a non Biblical liturgical calendar scheme. Therefore Sabbath keeping by believers is simply not even being discussed in Galatians, not directly, and not even indirectly.
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  #764  
Old 12-02-2019, 01:02 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Keeping Sabbath never did and does not mean the Sabbath keeper trusts in his own works and instead just naps in bed one day a week.

If you don't divorce and remarry, but you keep a mistress on the side, you are committing adultery.

Just as if you "rest from your fleshly works" but you work on the Sabbath and do not keep it holy, you are not keeping the Sabbath.

The Pharisees were rebuked by Jesus for devising spiritual sounding reasons to NOT actually do what the commandments say to do. Therefore, when Jesus gives the true depth of a commandment, He does NOT mean "therefore you can ignore the actual literal thing that is commanded."

If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
Isaiah:58:13

Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.
Isaiah:58:14

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
Isaiah:66:22

And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
Isaiah:66:23

Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Isaiah:56:1

Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Isaiah:56:2

Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
Isaiah:56:3

For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isaiah:56:4

Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah:56:5

Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isaiah:56:6

Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Isaiah:56:7

The Lord GOD, which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Isaiah:56:8
1)Νο divorce either in the New Testament, it is just "putting away" and if put away and re-marriy is adultrey..
Divorse was because of the hurdness of their hearts..
And all the commadments (have spiritual meaning) but are commandments for thew "cleansing of the flesh".
Now tell me "do not swearing lies" or "you will only swear in my name"
Jesus said "do not swear atoll"
How you keep it?
the same goes with the Sabbath.
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  #765  
Old 12-02-2019, 06:30 AM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

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1)Νο divorce either in the New Testament, it is just "putting away" and if put away and re-marriy is adultrey..
Divorse was because of the hurdness of their hearts..
And all the commadments (have spiritual meaning) but are commandments for thew "cleansing of the flesh".
Now tell me "do not swearing lies" or "you will only swear in my name"
Jesus said "do not swear atoll"
How you keep it?
the same goes with the Sabbath.
Jesus never said "do not keep Sabbath at all".

There is no commandment that obligates one to swear, only that if one gives an oath it is not to be done falsely nor is it to be by any other god except Jehovah. One can choose not to swear and not be guilty of breaking any commandment.

The only commandments that were for "cleansing of the flesh" were instructions regarding ritual uncleanness which in almost all cases that uncleanness was "until the evening".
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  #766  
Old 12-02-2019, 10:04 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Jesus never said "do not keep Sabbath at all".

There is no commandment that obligates one to swear, only that if one gives an oath it is not to be done falsely nor is it to be by any other god except Jehovah. One can choose not to swear and not be guilty of breaking any commandment.

The only commandments that were for "cleansing of the flesh" were instructions regarding ritual uncleanness which in almost all cases that uncleanness was "until the evening".
ok now we play with the words..
Yoiu want tell me that you dont understand the diferense between|
"No commit adaltery" and "even if you look at a woman with last you commit adultery"?
"Dont murder" and "dont say your brother raka"?
"swear on my name" and "dont swear atoll'?
"give your wife a divorcement" and "Moses because of your hardness of your heart allowed you to put ehr away"?

dont understand the differences between:
"dont eat unclean animals" and "nothing you eat makes you unclean'?
"15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day."
Oups...When you was Slave in Egypt Isaiah?
so when Lord commanded you to keep the Sabath for He brought you out of Egypt?

And dont tell me "i was slave on sin and He brought me out"..because that is His Rest ,in which if one enters...HE CEASED FROM HIS OWN WORKS!!!

common Sabbatism=Rest
So do you keep His Rest?
Yes i am resting right now!

(sorry for the tension but we had to speak other things now and not debade about Days and Foods on which the men who followed them did not brought them to perfection" . We have HOT subjects now brother! )
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  #767  
Old 12-02-2019, 05:49 PM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

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Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
ok now we play with the words..
Yoiu want tell me that you dont understand the diferense between|
"No commit adaltery" and "even if you look at a woman with last you commit adultery"?
"Dont murder" and "dont say your brother raka"?
"swear on my name" and "dont swear atoll'?
"give your wife a divorcement" and "Moses because of your hardness of your heart allowed you to put ehr away"?

dont understand the differences between:
"dont eat unclean animals" and "nothing you eat makes you unclean'?
"15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day."
Oups...When you was Slave in Egypt Isaiah?
so when Lord commanded you to keep the Sabath for He brought you out of Egypt?

And dont tell me "i was slave on sin and He brought me out"..because that is His Rest ,in which if one enters...HE CEASED FROM HIS OWN WORKS!!!

common Sabbatism=Rest
So do you keep His Rest?
Yes i am resting right now!

(sorry for the tension but we had to speak other things now and not debade about Days and Foods on which the men who followed them did not brought them to perfection" . We have HOT subjects now brother! )
Ok, honestly you aren't making sense anymore.
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  #768  
Old 12-03-2019, 01:51 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

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Ok, honestly you aren't making sense anymore.
sure...
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:56 AM
peter83 peter83 is offline
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

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Ok, honestly you aren't making sense anymore.
i say you dont understand the differences between "give her a divorce" vs "if you put her away you commit adulatery"?
or between "dont eat unclean animals" vs "no food can make anyonea unclean" and "everything is clean from us"

you dont understand the differences between:

"15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day."
Oups...When you was Slave in Egypt Isaiah?
so when Lord commanded you to keep the Sabbath for He brought you out of Egypt?
**And dont tell me "i was slave on sin and He brought me out"..because that is His Rest ,in which if one enters...HE CEASED FROM HIS OWN WORKS!!!

Does make sense now?
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  #770  
Old 12-03-2019, 05:12 AM
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Re: The Sabbath Day, Should You Keep or not Keep?

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sure...
Quote:
Originally Posted by peter83 View Post
i say you dont understand the differences between "give her a divorce" vs "if you put her away you commit adulatery"?
or between "dont eat unclean animals" vs "no food can make anyonea unclean" and "everything is clean from us"

you dont understand the differences between:

"15 And remember that thou wast a servant in the land of Egypt, and [that] the LORD thy God brought thee out thence through a mighty hand and by a stretched out arm: therefore the LORD thy God commanded thee to keep the sabbath day."
Oups...When you was Slave in Egypt Isaiah?
so when Lord commanded you to keep the Sabbath for He brought you out of Egypt?
**And dont tell me "i was slave on sin and He brought me out"..because that is His Rest ,in which if one enters...HE CEASED FROM HIS OWN WORKS!!!

Does make sense now?
I'm saying the subject of divorce and the subject of food laws do not really have any bearing on the subject of the Sabbath. Whatever point you are trying to make isn't being made.

Resting in Jesus does not mean not remembering the Sabbath day to keep it holy, anymore than eating the flesh and drinking the blood of Jesus means don't eat the Lord's Supper.

Since you have ceased from your own works, does that mean you do nothing except lay in bed 24 hours a day, 7 days a week? Of course not. You still do things. So ceasing from one's works must be understood in context. What works? Obeying God? You can't rest in God by breaking His commandments. I already posted the Scripture which shows resting in God involves following His ways. I already showed that those in the wilderness could not enter rest because of their refusal to believe (and thus obey) God's instructions.

So, it's pretty simple to me. Trust and obey, it's always better that way.
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