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  #31  
Old 06-02-2013, 12:39 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: The REAL problem with Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam View Post
Laws and penalties and the basis for those laws and penalties that are spelled out in one book that are identical to laws and penalties / basis that are spelled out in another are deemed inspired by the christian church in one book and evil in another.
I'd like to go further on this side topic (tho it is related to the topic at hand).

Many Christians do NOT affirm that the biblical law of God should be enforced. Many Christians are vehemently opposed to such a thing. They are in error, of course, but that is the same situation as Muslims who do not want Sharia to be enforced or to be established as law.

Same as those Jews who have no interest in Noachide laws being imposed upon the nations.

It does not change the issue or affect the issue of inspiration. Yes Christians seem to make a deal out of Sharia calling for the death penalty for say sodomites or adulterers.

But I think a lot of that is more Republican rhetoric supported by antinomian Christians than anything else.
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  #32  
Old 06-02-2013, 01:02 PM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
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Re: The REAL problem with Islam

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Originally Posted by crakjak View Post
Problem with your responses, you cannot find a single major Christian organization in the world that would embrace the evil the you present. To find a major Islamic organization that embraces torture of gays would be very easy. You are dishonest in your arguments.
a single major Christian organization in the world that would embrace the evil the you present

Christians embrace the same values that Muslims embrace and it is you who are being dishonest with me and it is you who are pretending to be something that you are not.

In 1778, Thomas Jefferson wrote a law in Virginia which contained a punishment of castration for men who engage in sodomy, however, what was intended by Jefferson as a liberalization of the sodomy laws in Virginia at that time was rejected by the Virginia Legislature, which continued to prescribe death as the maximum penalty for the crime of sodomy in that state.

This law imposing the death penalty for sodomy in the state of Virginia was a christian based law and it was based on the bible.

Prior to 1962, sodomy was a felony in every state, punished by a lengthy term of imprisonment and/or hard labor.
The sodomy laws in every single state prior to those free love days of the 60's were christian based laws and they were based on the bible.



I did not otherwise condemn anything. I am quite aware that the current christian church, having been smacked down by secular society (probably due to their long, long history of misdeeds and so much for that "gates of hell" thing huh), now engage in a game among themselves to beat their own chests in a contest as to who is more tolerant of sin. Tolerance after all invites membership and membership brings funding.

So if they/you can make EVERYONE (no matter what the bible actually says about their hobbies or activities) feel good about themselves then they/you can maximize their/your collections - which allow them/you to be able to afford to move your churches as far away from the poor as possible.

You will, I believe, find that laws in Muslim countries widely vary indicating that they lean to political, rather than religious, in nature.

Afghanistan, Mauritania, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Sudan, Iran, and Yemen retain the death penalty for homosexuality. This is 28% of the world's Muslim population.
Indonesia (excepting 1 province), Iraq, and Turkey do not prohibit/are tolerant of homosexuality. This is 24% of the world's Muslim population
The remaining countries have varying punishments ranging to imprisonment (mostly) to fines (a few).

A summary:

In Egypt the penalty is prison
In Indonesia homosexuality is tolerated everywhere except the Aceh province
and in Aceh the penalty is a fine and/or prison
In Iraq homosexuality is tolerated
In Malaysia the penalty is a fine and prison
In Nigeria the penalty is prison
In Pakistan the penalty is prison
In Turkey homosexuality is tolerated
In Uzbekistan the penalty is prison
In Bangledesh the penalty is prison
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  #33  
Old 06-02-2013, 01:34 PM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
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Re: The REAL problem with Islam

Your answer

[QUOTE=Esaias;1257272]I do not have a problem with a Koranic affirmation of a Biblical law, as long as it is affirms the biblical law as written and interpreted by the prophets and apostles.

Does this sura not teach that Jesus did not die, was not crucified, that an imposter/replacement was involved? If so, then the Koran teaches contrary to the apostles and therefore I conclude it must be false teaching.

It says exactly what is written and it definitely does not say that an imposter was involved. It says that it appeared to them (the Jews) that they killed Jesus but they did not. Some Muslim scholars have added to this and determined that their interpretation is that an imposter must have been involved however anything other than what the passage actually said is added.

I have read Muslim teachers who say this sura speaks of Jesus, that he will return, and die. Does not the Koran teach that all will die once? If Jesus then is not dead, then he must (according to Koran) die at some time in the future. Is this not Islamic teaching? Or am I misinformed?

The Surah is there for the reading and I certainly am in no position to hide the meaning as the Surah matches the story in the bible.

Surah 19 sez:


(This is) a recital of the Mercy of thy Lord to His servant Zakariya.
Behold! he cried to his Lord in secret,
Praying: "O my Lord! infirm indeed are my bones, and the hair of my head doth glisten with grey: but never am I unblest, O my Lord, in my prayer to Thee!
"Now I fear (what) my relatives (and colleagues) (will do) after me: but my wife is barren: so give me an heir as from Thyself,-
"(One that) will (truly) represent me, and represent the posterity of Jacob; and make him, O my Lord! one with whom Thou art well-pleased!"
(His prayer was answered): "O Zakariya! We give thee good news of a son: His name shall be Yahya: on none by that name have We conferred distinction before."
He said: "O my Lord! How shall I have a son, when my wife is barren and I have grown quite decrepit from old age?"
He said: "So (it will be) thy Lord saith, 'that is easy for Me: I did indeed create thee before, when thou hadst been nothing!'"
(Zakariya) said: "O my Lord! give me a Sign." "Thy Sign," was the answer, "Shall be that thou shalt speak to no man for three nights, although thou art not dumb."
So Zakariya came out to his people from his chamber: He told them by signs to celebrate Allah.s praises in the morning and in the evening.
(To his son came the command): "O Yahya! take hold of the Book with might": and We gave him Wisdom even as a youth,
And piety (for all creatures) as from Us, and purity: He was devout,
And kind to his parents, and he was not overbearing or rebellious.
So Peace on him the day he was born, the day that he dies, and the day that he will be raised up to life (again)! [/I]



No, not that he did not die and then he did die, but rather that he did not die, and he WILL (future tense) die.

[quote]Is Jesus dead? No? Then the Quran is correct.
Quote:

Not necessarily, for the Koran denies (does it not?) that Jesus died AND RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD?

The Quran states that:

004.157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
004.158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.


I suppose it can be interpreted as meaning that Jesus did not DIE and was subsequently resurrected

No, for the talmud denies Jesus is the Christ and that he RESURRECTED FROM THE DEAD.



The 'disagreements' between the four gospel accounts you claim have been dealt with many times before over the centuries. I too have looked at that issue and concluded the disagreements are not 'disagreements' and do in fact harmonize, they are not mutually exlusive.

I see. So an earthquake and dead rising from their graves and walking during the crucifixion in Matthew was not important enough to describe in the other gospels? Notwithstanding there is no record of this in the Roman reports (Romans recordkeepers were like Nazis - they reported EVERYTHING to their superiors)

Nonsense, the shorter ending of Mark is found in a few manuscfripts/texts which were never used but stored away in closets by the papacy to be 'revealed' conveniently at the same time liberal anti-Christian 'scholarship' subverted biblical studies.

Nonsense? scholars generally agree that the Gospel of Mark ends with verse 16:8, and that verses 16:9–20 were a later addition to the manuscript. This is even noted in the Gateway footnotes.

c.Mark 16:20 Verses 9–20 are bracketed in NU-Text as not original. They are lacking in Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other manuscripts of Mark contain them.

Could snake handling deaths actually be the result of some friar's cruel joke?



I never said that. I said that the so called 'Lord's prayer' ( a misnomer, it is actually the disciples' prayer) commands us to pray for the kingdom of God to come. God has identified Messiah as 'king' in his kingdom, therefore for the kingdom of God to come, for his will to be done on earth, the nations must submit to JESUS Christ as Lord and King.

The misnomer is my mistake actually.

God has identified Messiah as 'king' in his kingdom, therefore for the kingdom of God to come, for his will to be done on earth, the nations must submit to JESUS Christ as Lord and King.

Though interesting the above is actually not part of said prayer nor in the teaching before and after said prayer. Why do you suppose Jesus forgot to mention this critical information when teaching his disciples to pray?

I DO believe that Jesus is the human embodiment and manifestation of God in the flesh, the visible image of the invisible God, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, etc... but that was not my point in my remarks on the prayer we are commanded to pray.

Noted

Last edited by Praxeas; 06-02-2013 at 03:31 PM.
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  #34  
Old 06-02-2013, 01:52 PM
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Re: The REAL problem with Islam

Walks_In_Islam, may I ask... you are Muslim, correct?

Do you identify with any particular branch of Islam? sunni, shia, ahmadiyya, wahabbi, etc?
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  #35  
Old 06-02-2013, 03:24 PM
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Re: The REAL problem with Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam View Post
Laws and penalties and the basis for those laws and penalties that are spelled out in one book that are identical to laws and penalties / basis that are spelled out in another are deemed inspired by the christian church in one book and evil in another.

Surah 157 speaks of the Jews who still believe this to this day.

004.157 And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
004.158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
004.159 There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -


Sanhedrin 43a: "On the eve of the Passover, Yeshu (Jesus) was hanged...Do you suppose that he was one for whom a defense could be made? Was he not a Mesith (enticer)?"

At any rate, Surah 19 does not refer to Jesus. It refers to Yahya (John) who in 19:7-10 was referenced as the son of Zechariah (who was struck dumb for 3 days as a sign) and who is also known in the gospels as John the Baptist. He is listed as a Prophet in Islam.

I do understand that you have a problem between the two books but the Quran does not say Jesus did not die in one place and that Jesus did die in another.

Is Jesus dead? No? Then the Quran is correct. Yes? Then the Sanhedran is correct. Islamic scholars have tried to explain this passage by proposing that somehow a "replacement" was made on the Roman cross but all the Quran actually states is that the Jews believed they killed him but they did not and that he was taken up into Heaven alive. (SOME) of your gospels say the same thing however it is a certain fact that none of the gospels agree on what happened before or during the crucifixion, what Jesus and the criminals beside him said or did, and what the circumstances were in the days following. It is also a fact that 5 verses were ADDED to the last chapter in Mark which original text ends when the women saw a man who told them Jesus was not there and they ran away not telling anyone. Every word after that was penned onto the original text at some later date. So EVERYTHING about that event is actually conjecture, which the Quran quietly notes.
Actually here is how that portion reads...
Mar 16:6 And he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him.
Mar 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you."
Mar 16:8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

So this "man" (identified as an angel in the other gospels) confirmed Jesus had been crucified and rose from the dead.

You missed the point. He wasn't saying the Quran contradicted itself saying Jesus died and then in another place Jesus did not die. His point is the Quran contradicts what the bible teaches and the teaching of the Apostles that Jesus was crucified
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  #36  
Old 06-02-2013, 03:30 PM
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Re: The REAL problem with Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam View Post
It says exactly what is written and it definitely does not say that an imposter was involved. It says that it appeared to them (the Jews) that they killed Jesus but they did not. Some Muslim scholars have added to this and determined that their interpretation is that an imposter must have been involved however anything other than what the passage actually said is added.
Wii please learn to use the quote system. Your posts are becoming confusing to read

Anyways, does the Quran confirm or deny Jesus was crucified on the cross to death?
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  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
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  #37  
Old 06-02-2013, 05:38 PM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
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Re: The REAL problem with Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Actually here is how that portion reads...
Mar 16:6 And he said to them, "Do not be alarmed. You seek Jesus of Nazareth, who was crucified. He has risen; he is not here. See the place where they laid him.
Mar 16:7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter that he is going before you to Galilee. There you will see him, just as he told you."
Mar 16:8 And they went out and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had seized them, and they said nothing to anyone, for they were afraid.

So this "man" (identified as an angel in the other gospels) confirmed Jesus had been crucified and rose from the dead.

You missed the point. He wasn't saying the Quran contradicted itself saying Jesus died and then in another place Jesus did not die. His point is the Quran contradicts what the bible teaches and the teaching of the Apostles that Jesus was crucified
The angel did not say that he had risen from the dead but it certainly appears to imply that he did.

I believe I read that he was told that the passage in the Quran relating to John the Baptist dying and someday rising again was related to Jesus then said that this contradicts another passage that said the Jews thought they killed Jesus but they did not. This was a minor error only that was hopefully cleared up.

I otherwise did not dispute that the Quran appears to contradict what the bible says happened. On this I have never disputed. In trying to research what the bible says happened this section of it disputes itself but the general story, as you yourself have pointed out a couple of timed LOL, is similar in nature.

I do dispute the silly teaching that somehow there was a "replacement" or some such

Last edited by Walks_in_islam; 06-02-2013 at 05:48 PM.
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  #38  
Old 06-02-2013, 05:43 PM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
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Re: The REAL problem with Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Wii please learn to use the quote system. Your posts are becoming confusing to read

Anyways, does the Quran confirm or deny Jesus was crucified on the cross to death?
Somehow the reply page changed?

We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
004.158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
004.159 There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -


The Quran says he was not killed and did not die
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  #39  
Old 06-02-2013, 05:47 PM
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Praxeas Praxeas is offline
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Re: The REAL problem with Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Walks_in_islam View Post
Somehow the reply page changed?

We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.
004.158 But Allah took him up unto Himself. Allah was ever Mighty, Wise.
004.159 There is not one of the People of the Scripture but will believe in him before his death, and on the Day of Resurrection he will be a witness against them -


The Quran says he was not killed and did not die
Exactly! That was Esias's point.
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Apostolic is defined on AFF as:


  1. There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
  2. The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
  3. Every sinner must repent of their sins.
  4. That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
  5. That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
  6. The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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  #40  
Old 06-02-2013, 05:55 PM
Walks_in_islam Walks_in_islam is offline
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Re: The REAL problem with Islam

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Originally Posted by Praxeas View Post
Exactly! That was Esias's point.
Yes, it was.
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