Cant be saved without a pastor

[TakingDominion]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

I have heard this over the pulpit a lot.
From some great men.
And there is a grain of truth in that many churches run by boards, have ran off pastors.
I have seen many more bad boards, (in churches run by them), than I have seen bad pastors, (in churches run by them).

I agree there are bad apples in every bunch.

I would lean towards a elder/board run church, because that is how my church is organized. Although, I do believe the pastor should have the authority to preach what he feels God has laid on his heart. I recently had a one-on-one conversation with a board member, who told me of several times the board voted no to the pastor's requests. These requests were all monetary-related.

Churches where one man has all the control over finances, usually end up in a mess. Why? Because even the best pastors are flesh and blood and make mistakes.

Just yesterday, my good friend and I had a conversation over lunch. I told him the three most common things that cause pastors to fail; money, women and their own children (nepotism).

I do not believe, however because one or many pastors have failed, that gives us reasons to get rid of the authority in our lives. I believe this should cause us to pray all the more fervently, " God send me a pastor after your own hear".

#beApostolic

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

I agree there are bad apples in every bunch.

I would lean towards a elder/board run church, because that is how my church is organized. Although, I do believe the pastor should have the authority to preach what he feels God has laid on his heart. I recently had a one-on-one conversation with a board member, who told me of several times the board voted no to the pastor's requests. These requests were all monetary-related.

Churches where one man has all the control over finances, usually end up in a mess. Why? Because even the best pastors are flesh and blood and make mistakes.

Just yesterday, my good friend and I had a conversation over lunch. I told him the three most common things that cause pastors to fail; money, women and their own children (nepotism).

I do not believe, however because one or many pastors have failed, that gives us reasons to get rid of the authority in our lives. I believe this should cause us to pray all the more fervently, " God send me a pastor after your own hear".

#beApostolic

I apologize for taking what you said personally...just really read too much into the wording. I agree with your posts.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

I do not believe, however because one or many pastors have failed, that gives us reasons to get rid of the authority in our lives. I believe this should cause us to pray all the more fervently, " God send me a pastor after your own hear".

#beApostolic

Amen to your post. All good points.

But the above begged the question... What is meant by "authority" in relation to the individual lives of the saints? How much of this "authority" should a pastor have?

In our fellowship we have elders. Some of our elders pastor, others don't. Those who pastor are more like mentors, advisors, or teachers. They are like spiritual fathers. They don't really have the authority to demand or command that you obey them or face being disfellowshipped. Being disfellowshipped on account of egregious sin or heresy, that's an entirely different matter that is largely decided by the body after attempts to reconcile and resolve the issue have been made.

For example, let's say an elder believes that women shouldn't wear pants because they feel that they are immodest. The elder will share that understanding with an individual or family. But it is entirely up to that individual or family to determine if they believe the Scriptures teach the same thing and therefore adjust their lifestyle. Or if they disagree, it is entirely up to them to choose not to conform to the elder's advise. Same goes for television, wedding bands, things like Halloween, etc.

How much authority should a single pastor have over the individual lives of the saints?

[TakingDominion]

Originally Posted by jediwill83

I apologize for taking what you said personally...just really read too much into the wording. I agree with your posts.

No worries my friend. I'm glad I was able to express my true heart on the matter.

[TakingDominion]

Originally Posted by Aquila

Amen to your post. All good points.

But the above begged the question... What is meant by "authority" in relation to the individual lives of the saints? How much of this "authority" should a pastor have?

In our fellowship we have elders. Some of our elders pastor, others don't. Those who pastor are more like mentors, advisors, or teachers. They are like spiritual fathers. They don't really have the authority to demand or command that you obey them or face being disfellowshipped. Being disfellowshipped on account of egregious sin or heresy, that's an entirely different matter that is largely decided by the body after attempts to reconcile and resolve the issue have been made.

For example, let's say an elder believes that women shouldn't wear pants because they feel that they are immodest. The elder will share that understanding with an individual or family. But it is entirely up to that individual or family to determine if they believe the Scriptures teach the same thing and therefore adjust their lifestyle. Or if they disagree, it is entirely up to them to choose not to conform to the elder's advise. Same goes for television, wedding bands, things like Halloween, etc.

How much authority should a single pastor have over the individual lives of the saints?

I know where you're coming from with this. I believe spiritual/pastoral authority is a biblical principle, but like all biblical principles men can really mess it up at times. We've all heard the horror stories, and I'd rather not rehash those stories here.

I believe a true pastor and shepherd loves people in spite of their shortcomings, and in spite their many faults. I do not believe a true pastor has to get up and brow beat folks for not lining up to their standards.

However, I do believe a pastor should preach what he feels are good guidelines or standards for modesty, dress, entertainment etc. I want to know where my pastor stands on issues that pertain to my walk with God.

For example, our midweek service this week my pastor taught on holiness and separation. He did not bring up one specific "standard" of the church, but he3taught that holiness starts within. Holiness on the outside is a product of holiness on the inside, and holiness is much more than how long my sleeves are.

It's funny this discussion came up this week, because he used Hebrews 12 to illustrate his point. In verse 18 it talks about the mount from Exodus that Moses was to set a border at, so the people would not touch the mount. He paralled Moses setting the border, to a pastor setting up standards on these issues. I'd be interested to hear the forum's opinion on this analogy. When I read Hebrews 12:18, I right away see that it says For ye are NOT come unto the mount. That makes me wonder if the writer here would agree with the comparison.

#beApostolic

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

I know where you're coming from with this. I believe spiritual/pastoral authority is a biblical principle, but like all biblical principles men can really mess it up at times. We've all heard the horror stories, and I'd rather not rehash those stories here.

I believe a true pastor and shepherd loves people in spite of their shortcomings, and in spite their many faults. I do not believe a true pastor has to get up and brow beat folks for not lining up to their standards.

However, I do believe a pastor should preach what he feels are good guidelines or standards for modesty, dress, entertainment etc. I want to know where my pastor stands on issues that pertain to my walk with God.

For example, our midweek service this week my pastor taught on holiness and separation. He did not bring up one specific "standard" of the church, but he3taught that holiness starts within. Holiness on the outside is a product of holiness on the inside, and holiness is much more than how long my sleeves are.

Amen.

I think that for the most part every elder, pastor, priest, or whatever one wishes to call their spiritual leader, has some kind of standards. Even our house church fellowship, which focuses upon love and grace has "standards" though we don't emphasize them as such. They might not be codified into a holiness code, but they are indeed there. We're admonished to be modest and Christlike in dress and behavior that we might experience God's holiness in us.

I fully agree though. A pastor should have the liberty and authority to preach on what he feels led to preach on.

It's funny this discussion came up this week, because he used Hebrews 12 to illustrate his point. In verse 18 it talks about the mount from Exodus that Moses was to set a border at, so the people would not touch the mount. He paralled Moses setting the border, to a pastor setting up standards on these issues. I'd be interested to hear the forum's opinion on this analogy. When I read Hebrews 12:18, I right away see that it says For ye are NOT come unto the mount. That makes me wonder if the writer here would agree with the comparison.

#beApostolic

Interesting, I'd like to see what the forum's opinion is too. Because one could go in two directions there.

[houston]

Moses set the border, blah blah blah. Please. Get real.

[houston]

God gave the law to Moses. Moses didn’t add his preferences to it. Let’s talk about that.

[jediwill83]

Originally Posted by houston

God gave the law to Moses. Moses didn’t add his preferences to it. Let’s talk about that.

Actually Moses DID add his preferences to it and Jesus referred to those additions when the scribes and Pharisees questioned Him abouI t the law of divorce. Jesus was quick to point out in Matthew chapter 19
that Moses allowed divorce because of the hardness of their hearts but from the beginning it was not so.

3 The Pharisees also came unto him, tempting him, and saying unto him, Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause?4 And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female,5 And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?6 Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.7 They say unto him, Why did Moses then command to give a writing of divorcement, and to put her away?8 He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so.

So clearly we have a difference in the desire of what God wanted and intended and the law of Moses.

Jesus was clearly drawing distinction between the two, so a pastor doesnt have a blank check with the automatic stamp of approval
of every decision made concerning his "flock".

God clearly has a will and design for His people He wants followed.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by TakingDominion

I agree there are bad apples in every bunch.

I would lean towards a elder/board run church, because that is how my church is organized. Although, I do believe the pastor should have the authority to preach what he feels God has laid on his heart. I recently had a one-on-one conversation with a board member, who told me of several times the board voted no to the pastor's requests. These requests were all monetary-related.

Churches where one man has all the control over finances, usually end up in a mess. Why? Because even the best pastors are flesh and blood and make mistakes.

Just yesterday, my good friend and I had a conversation over lunch. I told him the three most common things that cause pastors to fail; money, women and their own children (nepotism).

I do not believe, however because one or many pastors have failed, that gives us reasons to get rid of the authority in our lives. I believe this should cause us to pray all the more fervently, " God send me a pastor after your own hear".

#beApostolic

I agree with most of the above.
But...
I will say that I have seen more churches in trouble (spiritually and financially) that had boards, than ones that had single pastors who controlled everything.
The best board setup I have seen is where the board was made up of other pastors, not members of the local assembly.