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  #31  
Old 03-03-2008, 10:22 PM
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Let's also touch on Hebrews...

" 1For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
2To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
3Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
4Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
5And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: " - Hebrews 7:1-5

The writer of Hebrews was establishing that Melchizedek was greater than Abraham and that Christ was greater than Melchizedek (Hebrews 7:15-28)

The passage has nothing to do with tithing, Gloryseeker, you're prooftexting.

So the reference to tithing must be seen in context. All this shows is that Abraham was under Melchizedek and that Christ is greater than Melchizedek. Even in this context we see that Abraham only tithed once in his entire life and that under the Law the Levites required tithes. It says nothing of the New Testament Church.

I'm also highly insulted that you would judge my pastor for having mercy on us in our time of need.
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  #32  
Old 03-03-2008, 11:02 PM
gloryseeker gloryseeker is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason View Post
Heb 7:5
5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham: (KJV)

One of the biggest mistakes non-tithers make is to think that the tithe is "under the law." The tithe is present WAY before the law was ever given.


Really? Don't you think it is quite a mistake to lump the ministry in with the levitical preisthood?
That's a good question Jason. My answer would be, "No, I don't." As someone once coined the phrase, "The Old Testament is the New Testament concealed and the New Testament is the Old Testament revealed."

Even Jesus said, (John 5:39), "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

The scriptures were the Old Testament and Jesus said you are reading about Me. The Levitical order was the ministry under the Old Covenant, the ministry under the NT is not through the bloodline of the Levites, but there it was still a representation of what was to come.


Quote:
All that tithing proponents can do is look at new testament scriptures that refer to the old covenant.
That would be because tithing was explained in the giving of the law, which is why Heb 7 states that the priesthood has a command to receive the tithe according to the law.

Quote:
Would you also say that after someone receives a healing they should offer animal sacrifice
Not even a point because we have scripture that states Jesus was the final sacrifice.

As I read through the posts, no one has given any scripture that would support that tithing has stopped. It is only things like, we only see Abraham doing it once, which only means it was written once. Hebrews doesn't count because it really doesn't mean what it says, tithing was grain or something like that. People even discount Jesus' words when talking to the Pharisees.

For me I am a product of the tithe, so I am passionate about it. But it's like someone trying to convince you that there is nothing better than vanilla ice cream after you just ate a banana split. Tithing works! I live to give and I give to live!
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  #33  
Old 03-04-2008, 08:09 AM
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ChristopherHall ChristopherHall is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

No one is proposing that tithing has stopped. By all means no. However, as it was in the days of Abraham, tithing isn't a command as it was under the Law. The Law abiding Pharisees would force you into starvation if it came down to tithing or supporting your family with a thin and insufficient harvest. The widows could be going hungry and the Pharisees would still demand the tithe. But today we are no longer under the Old Testament Law. That system was fulfilled in Christ. Now we walk by faith as Abraham did prior to the Law. Abraham destroyed the king of Sodom and sacked the city. Then Abraham turned and tithed to the King of Salem as a peace offering, thereby forming an alliance with the Priest King. This was a voluntary act on the part of Abraham and we don’t see it taking place again. Similarly under the New Covenant tithing is a voluntary act, as Paul put it our offerings (including the choice to tithe) is as one has purposed in his or her heart. Today a Pastor can offer “mercy” to a struggling family by admonishing them to care for their situation rather than demand they, “Go broke for the kingdom bless Gawd.”

I’ve lived it. I was a devout tither and giver for 12 years. I was faithful in my giving. It got to the point where our finances took a severe downturn. My wife’s student loans were no longer deferrable and they threatened to garnish a quarter of her wages, I was laid off by a company that hired in foreign contractors, we were behind in our mortgage and the bank was beginning to process legal action. No miracles had happened and things were looking real bad. I counseled with our pastor and he said, “Chris, I know you’ve been faithful in your giving. I want you to take what you’d normally give and take care of this debt. Debt is bondage. And God expects us to pay our debts. Also you have to provide for your family’s needs. It’ isn’t going to benefit or bless anyone to see your family loose your home and all you’ve worked for.” I answered, “But this is God’s money.” The Pastor explained that he was the steward of God’s money and then he said, “Consider it given back to you. Now I want you to take care of this and as soon as it’s paid off and you’re in good shape let me know and resume your giving.” And when it was taken care of we resumed our giving faithfully and even offered a sacrificial offering. I cannot testify to miraculous bags of money being given to me to pay off my bills…but I can testify to the mercy of godly leadership that cared more for me and my family as people than they did their own financial well being. Recently we’ve experienced another drought in our finances. And mercy came through once again. You can criticize these men of God as much as you like…but they had mercy on my family and God has blessed us and saved everything we’ve worked for through them.

So please don’t think we’re saying that tithing has “stopped”. By all means one does well by giving 10% of their increase to the kingdom. In fact one should give more than 10% if able. But when dealing with admonitions to tithe under the New Covenant we have to remember that it’s as a man has purposed in his heart…and we must not neglect justness, mercy, and faith.
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  #34  
Old 03-04-2008, 11:05 AM
gloryseeker gloryseeker is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

You have some points here, but I believe that your points have been built on the wrong foundation. If you changed the foundation you would change your perseption:


Quote:
Originally Posted by ChristopherHall View Post
However, as it was in the days of Abraham, tithing isn't a command as it was under the Law.
First of all the thought that tithing is under the law is wrong because it preceded the law. People try and make the point that Abraham only tithed once. That cannot be proved. You can only assume that from the one instance recorded. Consider Jacob after the encounter referred to as Jacobs ladder:

Gen 28:21-22
21 So that I come again to my father's house in peace; then shall the LORD be my God:
22 And this stone, which I have set for a pillar, shall be God's house: and of all that thou shalt give me I will surely give the tenth unto thee.

Where did he come up with this unless his father Abraham had shared these truths with him? What about Cain and Abel who were taking from their increase to come and present to God? Where did they come up with the idea. The law has nothing to do with the tithe except to explain fully how it worked.


[/QUOTE]The Law abiding Pharisees would force you into starvation if it came down to tithing or supporting your family with a thin and insufficient harvest.[/QUOTE]

People keep trying to make the point that the Pharisees in Jesus time were still under the law. I don't think anyone disagrees with that. It is a mute point if the tithe is not under the law, which is very clear that it is not as just explained above.

Your point is valid. The Pharisees would force a person into starvation, but where in the scriptures do we find the Pharisees an example of anything that we should be?

It wasn't the tithe that was the problem it was the Pharisees that was the problem. It's the same thing as the teaching that TV is a sin. TV is neither good nor evil, it's a tool. It can be used for good or for evil. Therefore, it's the person who control it is under that determines its validity.

Just because someone abused people in offerings doesn't mean the system is flawed, it only means the person was flawed.

I had a Pastor one time who was keeping a gal in Los Angeles outside his marriage. Does that make Pastor's bad? No, it only made that Pastor bad.

There are preachers that have abused the money of the church does that make giving money wrong, no it only makes those preachers wrong.

Quote:
Similarly under the New Covenant tithing is a voluntary act, as Paul put it our offerings (including the choice to tithe) is as one has purposed in his or her heart.
Can you give any scripture that indicates that ANYTHING is voluntary in the Word of God?

Can you give any scripture that Paul talking about offerings included the tithe in what he was saying?

The answer is no, you have inserted it as an assumption.

Quote:
Today a Pastor can offer “mercy” to a struggling family by admonishing them to care for their situation rather than demand they, “Go broke for the kingdom bless Gawd.”
Mercy is not a violation of God's command and the tithe does not make one go broke. If your foundation was in faith on what God has said you would see this as the opportunity to change your circumstance.

Quote:
I was a devout tither and giver for 12 years. I was faithful in my giving. It got to the point where our finances took a severe downturn.
This is an excellent point. The best one that you have made and I think a lot of "faithful tithers" would say AMEN! to it.

I have seen this a number of times. Tithing is not giving 10% even though the tithe is 10%. Putting $100 in the offering bucket every time you make $1,000 doesn't make a person a tither just as someone who throws $10 in the bucket constitutes an offering.

Tithes and offerings are not about money they are about honor. There is a way to tithe, there is a faith that is to be released in the tithe and the tithe is not the end all of walking in the blessings of God, but the act of giving is about honor:

Mal 1:5-8
5 And your eyes shall see, and ye shall say, The LORD will be magnified from the border of Israel.
6 A son honoureth his father, and a servant his master: if then I be a father, where is mine honour? and if I be a master, where is my fear? saith the LORD of hosts unto you, O priests, that despise my name. And ye say, Wherein have we despised thy name?
7 Ye offer polluted bread upon mine altar; and ye say, Wherein have we polluted thee? In that ye say, The table of the LORD is contemptible.
8 And if ye offer the blind for sacrifice, is it not evil? and if ye offer the lame and sick, is it not evil? offer it now unto thy governor; will he be pleased with thee, or accept thy person? saith the LORD of hosts.


Stop and think for a moment at offering time. How many people put in the offering from what is left over of their budget? What they give God is an afterthought.

How many people are giving the same amount of offerings as they were giving years ago, even though their incomes have gone up?

If you look at the "how" people bring to the Lord, you can easily see why Christians do not experience the blessings of God.

I could guarantee that I can come into any church and receive the tithes and offers for 6 months and within that time frame the finances of people and the church would totally turn around.

Faith comes by hearing the Word. Once people give the way God told to give things break open.

I tell people in our church all the time, "Don't give if you are not giving the way God said. We don't need your money, our bills aren't past due, and you are not our source." Then I teach God's way of giving!


Quote:
I counseled with our pastor and he said, “Chris, I know you’ve been faithful in your giving. I want you to take what you’d normally give and take care of this debt. Debt is bondage. And God expects us to pay our debts. Also you have to provide for your family’s needs. It’ isn’t going to benefit or bless anyone to see your family loose your home and all you’ve worked for.” I answered, “But this is God’s money.”
1. Your pastor was right in that debt is a bondage, but reality is you made the decision to go into debt God didn't lead you into debt.

2. Your pastor was right in that God expects us to pay our debts.

3. Your pastor was right in that God expects you to provide for your family

4. In the end you had more wisdom than your pastor when you said, "this is God's money."

I am one that can speak from experience. Through a series of bad decisions, not walking in unity with my wife, and some other stuck on stupid things we ended up with $70K in credit card/consumer debt + house payment, car payments, and two kids to raise.

Our first order of business was to repent.

Second order of business was for my wife and I to get into agreement

Third order of business was to get God active in our situation. Tithes and offerings came FIRST.

Third order of business was to get out of debt.

Walking with God I was debt free in 18 months. Either God is a respector of persons and He likes me better than others, or I was just willing to continue walking in faith no matter what the circumstances looked like.

Faith works, the Word works, God is faithful. Christians are typically moved by their circumstances.


Quote:
The Pastor explained that he was the steward of God’s money and then he said, “Consider it given back to you.
Don't get insulted again, but I would definitely find a new Pastor


Quote:
Recently we’ve experienced another drought in our finances. And mercy came through once again.
If I were you I would get off the mercy kick and find out why you keep going into these messes. I'm not saying we don't come up against hard times. We have an adversary, I understand that. But we should have to steal from God to make ends meet. There is something deeper here that you should be looking at.

Quote:
By all means one does well by giving 10% of their increase to the kingdom. In fact one should give more than 10% if able.
Again you make my point. Your giving is an afterthought. If I have enough I will give and even give big. God wants to be first.

Over the last few years I have been stuck in the 22-25% giving range. Things were stagnant and I wanted to do more. I had prayed many times for the Lord to increase me so I could give more, but nothing happened.

I finally realized that getting more to give more is not biblical. Giving more first was biblical. We stepped up. Last year 2007 we gave 35% of our GROSS income. It was the best year we've had. The increase came after we put God first.

My wife and I both got raises simultaneously representing about $700 a month increase. We gave 100% of the increase into the Kingdom for the first 6 months. We have a 6 month rule. Every time God increases us we give Him the increase for the first 6 months.

My goal is to give into the Kingdom a minimum of 51% of my Gross income so that more of my life is about Him than about me. What I have found is that the more I put Him first the more He releases into my life.

Final point:

One of the biggest arguments about the tithe that people make is the care of the poor and widows.

But I bet you that the majority of people who don't give the tithe don't help the poor either. It's not the poor and the widows it's about our wanting our money and doing things our way.
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  #35  
Old 03-04-2008, 11:21 AM
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Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Is it a command to tithe, yes, from the pastor. LOL Just kidding. I believe that everyone should tithe. There are too many benefits from it. Now is it a command from God?? I lean towards yes, but not sure if it effects salvation. I do tithe, but out of my willingness to give to God not out of a requirement. The Lord loves a cheerful/happy giver.
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  #36  
Old 03-04-2008, 11:39 AM
gloryseeker gloryseeker is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by JTULLOCK View Post
Is it a command to tithe, yes, from the pastor. LOL Just kidding. I believe that everyone should tithe. There are too many benefits from it. Now is it a command from God?? I lean towards yes, but not sure if it effects salvation. I do tithe, but out of my willingness to give to God not out of a requirement. The Lord loves a cheerful/happy giver.
Now, I agree with everything you said until you tagged on the last line.

If the tithe is biblical and God states that a tenth of our increase is His. Then you are not "giving" the tithe, but "returning" the tithe.

The tenth is not ours to give. It is God's, which is why He said it is holy to Him. It does not become His when we give it, thus we have stolen it when we keep it.

If it is ours while in our possession then there is no way that we could steal it. Aninias and Sapphira were stating that they were giving 100%, not the tithe. What was in their possession was the ability to determine what amount they were going to give that they controlled.

If giving is totally determined by our heart then the tithe is a mute point because the two terms are contradictory in nature. Everything then is an offering.

This is where people get messed up. The tenth is something in our life that God has established as His, just as in the garden Adam and Eve could eat of any tree except the one that was God's. The offering is of the heart, it's your money, you decided what you are going to give.
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  #37  
Old 03-04-2008, 04:08 PM
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Scott Hutchinson Scott Hutchinson is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

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Originally Posted by ApostolicTexas View Post
I take it that you give what you can instead of a mandatory 10%...if so do you catch any flack from your pastor and not get used in your church?
I'll be honest here what we gives basically amounts to a tenth alot of the time though sometimes we have given less and sometimes more.
We also give in sunday school offerings and such beside our general church offer,and I have given my last dollar to the church before and was happy to do so.
When we have given less than the tenth we did not catch flack from our pastor.
We believe in giving to the church and we give to support our church.
I would encourage anybody who is apart of a local church to support the church with their freewill offerings.
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  #38  
Old 03-04-2008, 06:54 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

gloryseeker,

please fill me in on why we reject the trinity, baptism in titles, veneration of images and saints, the books of tobit,macabees,etc. Yet hold to oneness of God, Baptism in the name of Jesus, the infilling of the Holy Ghost, a lifestyle of personal holiness and spontaneous, not instutionalized, worship. Also why we do not confess our sins to a preiest, or buy indulgences. Is in not because all of these things were not original in the church, but were added by "councils", most of these within the first 500 years of the church age, yet we gladly turn a blind eye to the councils of milan and tours (567 AD!) because we too (in our modern day) have an instutionalised organization with central headquarters, lavish buildings, etc. Thus we need to apply the decsion of Tours to bring back the tithe.
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  #39  
Old 03-04-2008, 07:33 PM
Jason B Jason B is offline
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sorry for the long post

Please allow me to share my reason for feeling this way. From the time I recieved the Holy Ghost I was taught to tithe. I was 18 years old, made 6.70/hr, married, soon my first child was born (before I was even in church a year). I did tithe, though not for years and years as some on this board have. Anyhow, over the process of time many things happened, some good and some bad. My giving did fluctuate, I was honest with my pastor, and I felt terrible. The consolation was I was told (albeit in a kind manner) "You can't go to heaven if you don't pay your tithes." So try to catch up I did, yet more bills, and responsibility, and even a couple (or even more) of bad financial decisions plus raising a family at a young age, I was not always able to pay the tithe. I was under condemnation-not necessarily conviction, because I trusted my pastor, almost blindly.
I was open with God asking Him to help to give better, I legitimately felt terrible. When I thought back on things I realized that even though I had tithed, and felt like I was a tither, I did miss a week here or there, so in reality I was never caught up, hence, according to what I was taught, I was never really saved. Now I mean I came out of some bad sin, I will mot go into details, I know have had it worse, but I had a load of problems. Then I was born again, in like a 2 week span my life was COMPLETELY changed. So I began to think, rationalize, and pray, why would God save me, completely change my life, and all that He has done only that I be lost. I mean, God knew I had problems when he saved me. If he was interested in my salvation hinging on my giving a certain amount of my income he could have saved me in my 30's. But He was more interested in me, and knew my hunger. That is what I am thankful for. Anyway none of this matters without the Word, so i was prompted to study tithing, which I had always blindly accepted. When I studied it, much like oneness was for me, I did not even realize that other people actually believed that. I felt like I was on my own island. When I studied I have found that (in short, there are a multitude of scriptures) that we are not redeemed with corruptible things such as silver and gold, but with the precious blood of Christ. Though it is just a song, its words ring quite true, "what can wash away my sins? nothing but the blood of Jesus" When I ried to share this with my former pastor, he did not answer the scriptures, but attacked me, saying "the only people who believe that are rebels, and rebellious." Would not even consider the 1 or 2 scriptures I had offered, and that is as far as it got. I certainly believe in giving, and am giving probably better than I ever have, but I don't really know what percentage. Quite frankly sometimes it is over 10%, but not much, and sometimes it is probably half of that. But I have been paying for God to help me to give, and though I do not tithe, I have been blessed more so the last 2 years of my life than EVER! An income that went from 20,000 to 46,000. I hope to continue to increase my giving. I realize that God gives and can take away. So I am not saying that to be cocky (it is probably less than most people make anyhow) but to show that if I am cursed, I am sorely confused how this works-at least for me. Tithed and struggles, gave as i was prospered and was blessed abundantly.

Now I would not discourage anyone from giving to God, in fact I don't thanik that anyone in my church knows I hold this view, because I don't want to discourage a person from giving one dollar that they are giving.

PS-i never left the church over this issue, the man mentioned is no longer my pastor because we have a different pastor now, I remained in the church with that pastor, and am there to this very day. The pastor mentioned was a GREAT man of God, whom I loved dearly, but we did have different views on this, and after trying to share it with him, and being rebuked without scripture, it was the last time we spoke of these things.

Furthermore i began to consider this after study about 5 years ago, I sook out leadership, and pro-tithing bible studies and books, feeling surely someone could correct me. When no one could bring anything outside of what I had already studied I began to accept that considering scripture and church history the tithe for Christians is non biblical. the best argument that I have found for tithing is we are children of Abraham, but it doesn't hold up.

I'm done for now, pleaseforgive the length of the post.
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  #40  
Old 03-04-2008, 07:47 PM
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Jack Shephard Jack Shephard is offline
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Re: Tithing…Is it a command?

Quote:
Originally Posted by gloryseeker View Post
Now, I agree with everything you said until you tagged on the last line.

If the tithe is biblical and God states that a tenth of our increase is His. Then you are not "giving" the tithe, but "returning" the tithe.

The tenth is not ours to give. It is God's, which is why He said it is holy to Him. It does not become His when we give it, thus we have stolen it when we keep it.

If it is ours while in our possession then there is no way that we could steal it. Aninias and Sapphira were stating that they were giving 100%, not the tithe. What was in their possession was the ability to determine what amount they were going to give that they controlled.

If giving is totally determined by our heart then the tithe is a mute point because the two terms are contradictory in nature. Everything then is an offering.

This is where people get messed up. The tenth is something in our life that God has established as His, just as in the garden Adam and Eve could eat of any tree except the one that was God's. The offering is of the heart, it's your money, you decided what you are going to give.
I mentioned giving in relation to me keeping it. Of course it is all God's whether we physically give it or HE gets in other ways. Yes we are ginving back to him or rather returning back to Him. I am in 100% agreement here, I guess it was a missusage of words on my part or a symantical arguement on yours. But FYI we are on the same page.
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