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07-15-2009, 04:23 PM
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Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest
This is a sincere and honest question.
There are many UPCI churches "loosening" up on their dogmatic stances concerning particular standards. There are many implications from these actions. Why? Well, you have a church that has been conditioned with rules-based holiness that inevitably forms into a tradition, and not to mention the subconscious conditioning that a person develops over years of this stuff.
So, when certain others of the church start trimming their hair, wearing make-up, etc what do the others that are content living the way they've lived? Doesn't the "stumbling block rule" apply to these churches? Should these churches be built from scratch and not implemented into rooted, seasoned churches? What about the youth groups -- how have they responded? I've heard, though many fight standards in favor of a true holiness (those who personally seek to please God, willing to give up anything if it hinders their walk), that instead, what happens in these "hybrid" churches is a picture of the ugliest of carnality. Pleasing God is back seat to new-found so-called freedoms. It's like the rebellious 18-year old who has the world to his own, but the entire, or half the church is that 18-year old. And "rebellion" in any degree isn't good.
Do you know a church that has made this transition well? Without collapsing and imploding (either in numbers or in spirit)? Surely, not all those who want to step away from dogmatic standards want a church culture of "anything goes." I know some on here see it that way (nothing we can do to merit his love, so quit worrying about it, etc), but not everyone sees it that way.
Interested in your feedback.
Last edited by GrowingPains; 07-15-2009 at 04:29 PM.
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07-15-2009, 04:26 PM
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Re: Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest
It has happened successfully, but it takes YEARS. Often it literally takes the older generation dying off.
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07-15-2009, 05:05 PM
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Re: Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest
Ah
But Randy, can you name one that is successful?
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07-15-2009, 05:12 PM
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Re: Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest
Quote:
Originally Posted by TJJJ
Ah
But Randy, can you name one that is successful?
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I can. And I can name even more "standards" churches that have failed on their own and all but disappeared without ever "letting down."
Just go through the list of Home Missionaries into your district from the last 20 or 30 years. What has become of all those works? Why? Which were "standards" based churches, and which placed an emphasis more upon relationship with the Savior? Who's still around?
Almost all were "standards" churches around here. Most of them are gone.
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07-15-2009, 05:27 PM
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Re: Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
I can. And I can name even more "standards" churches that have failed on their own and all but disappeared without ever "letting down."
Just go through the list of Home Missionaries into your district from the last 20 or 30 years. What has become of all those works? Why? Which were "standards" based churches, and which placed an emphasis more upon relationship with the Savior? Who's still around?
Almost all were "standards" churches around here. Most of them are gone.
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Who are they? What's their story?
Let's be fair and say there are poor pastors on both sides of the aisle. I've seen fly-by-night charlatan libs go nowhere, and I've seen Hitler Juniors never go anywhere. Likewise, I've seen many conservative churches succeed (at numbers), and ultra-lib churches succeed (at numbers). Fair enough? I'm not trying to combat con vs lib -- at least it wasn't my intention. I'm referring to this specific problem of hybrid churches.
Seems the few churches I can think of that fit this description (Michigan, Texas, California, Florida) are having some extreme challenges, especially with the youth groups.
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07-15-2009, 05:42 PM
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Love God, Love Your Neighbor
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Re: Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrowingPains
Seems the few churches I can think of that fit this description (Michigan, Texas, California, Florida) are having some extreme challenges, especially with the youth groups.
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What kind of challenges?
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07-15-2009, 05:58 PM
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Honorary Admin
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Re: Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest
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Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*
What kind of challenges?
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I can only imagine the challenges with young people or youth group. I think it really is important for these changes to be made slowly. Teaching and encouragment for a personal relationship with the Lord is so important.
I have had to do a lot of teaching on "all things are lawful, but not everything is expedient" to my teen girls. The hardest for me has been with my oldest who was the last to let go of traditions. She was still active in singing of our church, so although her sisters didn't, she still held to the standards. It hasn't been an easy time... I can only imagine what an entire group of teens would be facing when standards have been linked to their salvation for most of their lives.
The most spiritually grounded of my girls is the youngest, and she hasn't followed standards since she was in grade school. In school, she takes a bible to read and she is also the one who will defend her position with scripture. She is right now at UPCI youth camp, where she wants to be.. because she has a sincere desire to be closer to the Lord and grow spiritually.
I know it might sound funny, but you remove outward standards or guidelines and you find out real fast how strong someone's relationship with God is.
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07-15-2009, 06:25 PM
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Re: Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrowingPains
Who are they? What's their story?
Let's be fair and say there are poor pastors on both sides of the aisle. I've seen fly-by-night charlatan libs go nowhere, and I've seen Hitler Juniors never go anywhere. Likewise, I've seen many conservative churches succeed (at numbers), and ultra-lib churches succeed (at numbers). Fair enough? I'm not trying to combat con vs lib -- at least it wasn't my intention. I'm referring to this specific problem of hybrid churches.
Seems the few churches I can think of that fit this description (Michigan, Texas, California, Florida) are having some extreme challenges, especially with the youth groups.
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You're right about the "hybrid" angle. At least in my opinion you're right.
I don't want to name names or places where the word "failure" is used. After all, I confess that the standards of success are based more on "man's measurements" than on anything eternal.
The place where I poured out most of the years of my life and ministry doesn't really exist any more. We were one of the outwardly "ultra-con" type places, but the senior pastor was really more of a "live and let live" type - at least when he could get away with it. Then an axe would fall over some trivial point, heads would roll and we'd be "holiness or hell!" again, until some new family showed up and won our hearts and things would kind of slide again.
The overall atmosphere ended up being kind of deceptive, but it literally took me years and years to notice that. We'd lure folks in with an "everyone's welcome!" attitude. Then the old man and his wife would go off to a "retreat" some place or get "counsel" from "friends" and heads would roll again.
Another thing, look up all of the churches that made the news as "cults" within the UPC and apostolic world. Google it. You'll find that all of them were "ultra-con" type places and that what got them into trouble was their emphasis on some aspect of "holiness." In the end, they ended up being too extreme for the UPC, but all of the old news accounts still call them "UPC" churches.
I think the biggest problem is one of deception. We deceive ourselves about our intentions and wind up deceiving others. The yo-yo effect of "extreme" to "open" to "extreme" and back again is what causes the most problems. How about just letting the Word of God determine our "standards?" If it's not in the Book, then be open to some different ideas. Being foundeed upon the teachings of Jesus Christ and His apostles is what "Apostolics" are supposed to be about. Wouldn't it be great if it were true?
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07-15-2009, 06:27 PM
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Re: Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest
Quote:
Originally Posted by *AQuietPlace*
What kind of challenges?
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Being able to back up the "standards" with scripture?
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07-15-2009, 06:51 PM
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Re: Con-to-Lib "Hybrid" Churches: Let's be Honest
Quote:
Originally Posted by GrowingPains
This is a sincere and honest question.
There are many UPCI churches "loosening" up on their dogmatic stances concerning particular standards. There are many implications from these actions. Why? Well, you have a church that has been conditioned with rules-based holiness that inevitably forms into a tradition, and not to mention the subconscious conditioning that a person develops over years of this stuff.
So, when certain others of the church start trimming their hair, wearing make-up, etc what do the others that are content living the way they've lived? Doesn't the "stumbling block rule" apply to these churches? Should these churches be built from scratch and not implemented into rooted, seasoned churches? What about the youth groups -- how have they responded? I've heard, though many fight standards in favor of a true holiness (those who personally seek to please God, willing to give up anything if it hinders their walk), that instead, what happens in these "hybrid" churches is a picture of the ugliest of carnality. Pleasing God is back seat to new-found so-called freedoms. It's like the rebellious 18-year old who has the world to his own, but the entire, or half the church is that 18-year old. And "rebellion" in any degree isn't good.
Do you know a church that has made this transition well? Without collapsing and imploding (either in numbers or in spirit)? Surely, not all those who want to step away from dogmatic standards want a church culture of "anything goes." I know some on here see it that way (nothing we can do to merit his love, so quit worrying about it, etc), but not everyone sees it that way.
Interested in your feedback.
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I have to agree with a point made above. It normally takes years.
But here's a thought... if a church falls into absolute spiritual chaos once the rules are gone it doesn't mean that the rules were good for them. In fact it testifies to the fact that the "standards" only taught them to live for the rules... not Jesus. When a person is seeking to live for Jesus they don't need rules. Sure, they might not dress ultra-con, they might have trimmed hair, they might wear a little makeup, they might have a glass of wine with dinner on occasion, or smoke a cigar at their son's birth - but they won't conceivably embrace that which is truly a violation of God's Law.
This is an example of how "church" is actually harmful for so many Christians. The Bible doesn't command us to go to church, it admonishes us to embrace Christian fellowship. I'll take Christian fellowship over church any day.
Last edited by Aquila; 07-15-2009 at 06:53 PM.
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