Christian Reconstructionism:

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

So then nobody can possibly know of a certainty what idolatry is? Seriously? It's all just "a matter of interpretation"? See, that's relativism and universal scepticism, products (actually, necessary conclusions) to the humanist philosophy. Nothing can be known with certainty. People disagree therefore nothing can be actually known.

But I believe when God said "no idolatry", it wasn't a "matter of interpretation". How could it be? The NT says "flee idolatry". But how can that be obeyed if it's all just a matter of "private interpretation"? And therefore nobody can draw any conclusions?

You aren't convinced that Wicca, neopaganism, Huinduism, etc is idolatry? Seriously?

Oh, I am convinced the examples you laid out are idolatry. Those are pretty obvious.
But how about sports, movies, etc? Those have been preached as idolatry. I do not believe they are. Now, a person's attitude towards sports and movies can lead them to place those things ahead of God, leading to idolatry. But I do not believe those things in themselves are idolatry. Those that preach against sports and movies obviously interpret scripture differently than I do...so, yeah.

Originally Posted by Esaias

What will you do after Judgment Day? Because after that day the Word of God will be performed with no possible opportunity for debate, discussion, differences of opinion, etc. Does the Bible forbid slavery? Does the Bible command women to be under authority and not to have authority over men? Does the Bible command "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"?

You are in effect saying you prefer to live in a society that is not following the Bible. You prefer a nonBiblical society to a Biblical society? God says "no idolatry" you say "not so, God, people should be allowed to do whatever they want"?

On slavery - I don't know of an explicit forbidding of slavery. Some have used the "menstealers" verse to indicate the bible is against slavery, but I think that's stretching it.

On "women authority" - the application of those injunctions were in the context of applying it to the church not society

On "witch to live" - Old testament was execution, new testament is preach that they repent and deliver them from the spirit of witchraft, not kill them. In the book of Acts, Peter and Paul cast out many witchcraft spirits, not kill the witches.

On "people do whatever they want" -- that to me falls under "what have I to do to judge them that are without" .

Originally Posted by Esaias

The New Testament affirms the eternal validity of the commandments of God. The idea that all the laws of God were repealed, and the only laws that exist are whatever is commanded in the New Testament is a wholly non-New testament doctrine. Rather, all the laws (every jot and tittle) of God still stand unless specifically amended or repealed in the New Testament.

In the old testament, Israel was told to execute idolaters, fornicators, etc...
Jesus definitely repealed executing sinners in the new testament. He said "Go and make disciples of all nations..." he that believes and is baptized shall be saved, believeth not is damned."
Nothing about executing unbelievers.
Again, see the reference to Peter and Paul delivering people from withcraft spirits not executing them.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Paul affirmed that anyone who had supposedly repented and joined the ekklesia of God who was guilty of unrepentant sin was to be expelled from the community (the church). Gentile believers living in gentile lands where the laws of God were most certainly NOT enforced, but rather where the laws of devil worship were the "law of the land", could not possibly do anything EXCEPT excommunicate and shun those guilty of sin. And again, the church's role is not the enforcement of civil penalties against sinners.

You're advocating for the state to enforce civil penalties based on the church's teachings. Same thing imo.

Originally Posted by Esaias

But the fact the church has not the role of civil law enforcement, does not mean laws should not be enforced. Do you advocate the abolition of all civil law enforcement? Do you think murderers and rapists should only be punished with being expelled from the church (if they belong to a church)? Do you believe that whenever the court system convicts a person of rape, robbery, or some other crime that the court is completely outside the will of God? That God would much prefer crime go unpunished unless it is committed by a Christian? And then the only punishment is expulsion from the church?

That cannot possibly be correct.

I am saying God did not give society rules to live by. He gave Christians guiding rules, not society. Therefore, the unbelieving world are "a law unto themselves". Society determines the punishment for a crime, whether it's execution or jail.

If society decides to glean things from the bible that is believed to be wholesome for good living, (e.g dietary restrictions), great. However, I see no place where God demands society to follow biblical principles.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Esaias

But the fact the church has not the role of civil law enforcement, does not mean laws should not be enforced.

So, the church should depend on unregenerated heathen to righteously enforce the Law of God???

[Aquila]

I want to touch base on something...

Paul wrote,

Romans 13:1-7 King James Version (KJV)
1 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.
3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

This isn't a command to blindly obedient to human government. It is an admonition not to revolt. But rather we are to offer due respect to the political authorities of this world that God has allowed, even if they are pagan (this throws a wrench in the whole theonomic perspective), and to pay our taxes. Nothing more, nothing less.

Keep in mind, the very same pagan government Paul is telling them to respect and not to revolt against is the very same government that eventually beheaded him and slaughtered countless Christians for sport.

This isn't an admonition to be loyal to, unconditionally obey, to serve and kill for, nor to align the mission of the church with any earthly government. Paul's point is simple:

Don't revolt.
God has allowed these earthly governments authority for a season.
Violent revolt would therefore be a sin against God's established order.
We are to respect earthly authorities, even if they are pagan.
Pay your taxes.

That's all this tells us to do.

But in relation to this issue, Paul's point here would fly in the face of the theonomic agenda.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

On "women authority" - the application of those injunctions were in the context of applying it to the church not society...

On "witch to live" - Old testament was execution, new testament is preach that they repent and deliver them from the spirit of witchraft, not kill them...

On "people do whatever they want" -- that to me falls under "what have I to do to judge them that are without" ...


In the old testament, Israel was told to execute idolaters, fornicators, etc...
Jesus definitely repealed executing sinners in the new testament. He said "Go and make disciples of all nations..." he that believes and is baptized shall be saved, believeth not is damned."
Nothing about executing unbelievers.
Again, see the reference to Peter and Paul delivering people from withcraft spirits not executing them.


You're advocating for the state to enforce civil penalties based on the church's teachings. Same thing imo.


I am saying God did not give society rules to live by. He gave Christians guiding rules, not society. Therefore, the unbelieving world are "a law unto themselves". Society determines the punishment for a crime, whether it's execution or jail.

If society decides to glean things from the bible that is believed to be wholesome for good living, (e.g dietary restrictions), great. However, I see no place where God demands society to follow biblical principles.

I'll just let the Scriptures speak for themselves:

Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing? The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying, Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us. He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance, and the uttermost parts of the earth for thy possession. Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron; thou shalt dash them in pieces like a potter's vessel. Be wise now therefore, O ye kings: be instructed, ye judges of the earth. Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
(Psalms 2:1-12)

Behold, I have taught you statutes and judgments, even as the LORD my God commanded me, that ye should do so in the land whither ye go to possess it. Keep therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding in the sight of the nations, which shall hear all these statutes, and say, Surely this great nation is a wise and understanding people. For what nation is there so great, who hath God so nigh unto them, as the LORD our God is in all things that we call upon him for? And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?
(Deuteronomy 4:5-8)

For the LORD is our judge, the LORD is our lawgiver, the LORD is our king; he will save us.
(Isaiah 33:22)

Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation. For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same: For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.
(Romans 13:1-4)

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
(Matthew 5:17-18)


And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers, Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents, Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful: Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.
(Romans 1:28-32)

But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
(Romans 2:2)

Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.
(Romans 3:31)

But in the last days it shall come to pass, that the mountain of the house of the LORD shall be established in the top of the mountains, and it shall be exalted above the hills; and people shall flow unto it. And many nations shall come, and say, Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And he shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
(Micah 4:1-3)

Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles. He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.
(Isaiah 42:1-4)

For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name shall be great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense shall be offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name shall be great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.
(Malachi 1:11)

All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and all the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee. For the kingdom is the LORD'S: and he is the governor among the nations.
(Psalms 22:27-28)

For the LORD most high is terrible; he is a great King over all the earth. He shall subdue the people under us, and the nations under our feet.
(Psalms 47:2-3)

To the chief Musician on Neginoth, A Psalm or Song. God be merciful unto us, and bless us; and cause his face to shine upon us; Selah. That thy way may be known upon earth, thy saving health among all nations. Let the people praise thee, O God; let all the people praise thee. O let the nations be glad and sing for joy: for thou shalt judge the people righteously, and govern the nations upon earth. Selah.
(Psalms 67:1-4)

Yea, all kings shall fall down before him: all nations shall serve him.
(Psalms 72:11)

Arise, O God, judge the earth: for thou shalt inherit all nations.
(Psalms 82:8)

Say among the heathen that the LORD reigneth: the world also shall be established that it shall not be moved: he shall judge the people righteously.
(Psalms 96:10)

And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
(Revelation 12:5)

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I'll just let the Scriptures speak for themselves:

The scriptures you posted do not postulate that man is to enforce the laws of God on his neighbor.

I'll respond to each -

Ps 2:1-12; We see a case in Acts 4 where the apostles cited their persecution as a fulfillment of this this scripture. Nowhere did they say to go execute the unbelievers

Deut 4:5-8; He was addressing the nation of Israel

Isa 33:22; Yes he is OUR (believer's) lawgiver

Rom 13:Yes, the state administers punishment to violators of civil law. That's the context of "doing evil" in that passage. Matter of fact, he even went on to say in verses 5-7:

5 Wherefore ye must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.
6 For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.
7 Render therefore to all their dues: tribute to whom tribute is due; custom to whom custom; fear to whom fear; honour to whom honour.

Basically, christians should obey civil authorities. Civil authorities have the God given right to enforce civil laws. Again the context of "doing evil" in this passage was disobeying civil laws.

Matt 5:17-18
He said the law will not pass away until ALL of it is fulfilled. Then he said, he came to fulfill the law. Didn't Christ fulfill the law? He certainly did. Matter of fact, Paul said "the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us that walk after the Spirit". If all of the law was not fulfilled in Christ, we have no hope of salvation.

Rom 1:28-32
Yes, they are worthy of death. By the old testament law, they are worthy of death. The same treatise continued in Rom 2: 4 stating:

"Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?"

So if in the new testament, sinners are to immediately executed, then what's the point "the goodness and longsuffering of God leading to repentance"?

Rom 2:2 I agree, the judgement of God is death for such. However, God has decided not to execute judgement until the white throne judgement.

We all know (Rom 6:23) "the wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus" As long as there is still opportunity to receive the gift of eternal life, we are not to execute sinners.

Rom 3:31. Yeah, Paul was comparing those that had the to those that were not given the law. The intent was to show that both were under condemnation by the stipulations of the law. And then he goes on to show that both those that were given the law (jews) and those that did not have it (gentiles) can only be justified by faith. The whole point of Rom 1-8 was to prove that trying observe the law was futile. Only in Christ is one justified. By being in Christ, a person has fulfilled the requirements of the law.
Again, nothing about executing sinners

All the other scriptures you cited: Their fulfillment has begun since the days of the apostles and is continuing to be fulfilled today. Probably best to dedicate another thread to expound on this.

[TGBTG]

Rom 6:23
The wages of sin is death, BUT the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

We all know the what the wages of sin is. It is death. The law demanded death as the reward for sin.

But the whole point of the new testament is that God is forbearing with sinners till they come to repentance in Christ (Rom 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9). Their "death" will not meted out until the "...the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel."

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

And then in 1 Cor 6, we read:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Let's assume the whole world becomes evangelized with "true doctrine" and majority of the nations begin to follow biblical principles.
At what point do we no longer allow fornicators, idolaters, etc time to come to repentance and begin executing them per old testmant law?

Bump for Esaias

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

The scriptures you posted do not postulate that man is to enforce the laws of God on his neighbor.

I'll respond to each -

Ps 2:1-12; We see a case in Acts 4 where the apostles cited their persecution as a fulfillment of this this scripture. Nowhere did they say to go execute the unbelievers

.

Unfortunately, you have chosen to run off the rails with a straw man argument. So I don't see this discussion going anywhere, now.

[Aquila]

I can only pray that this religio-fascist doctrine be vanquished to Hell from which it came.

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Unfortunately, you have chosen to run off the rails with a straw man argument. So I don't see this discussion going anywhere, now.

What straw man argument have I made? please, show me.

You are the one appealing to the old testament to advocate for executing sinners. I am saying no where in the new testament is the state required to execute sinners in the name of administering God's law.

These were your words:

Originally Posted by Esaias

Let's look at that. first of all, those are indeed capital crimes. God Himself said those who commit those crimes are to be executed:

And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
(Leviticus 20:10)

And he that stealeth a man, and selleth him, or if he be found in his hand, he shall surely be put to death.
(Exodus 21:16)

If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.
(Leviticus 20:13)

But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
(Deuteronomy 22:20-21)

So those things (and several other offenses as well) are capital offenses that God says require the death penalty.

Originally Posted by Esaias

So was God wrong when He ordained that idolatry was a capital crime, punishable by death? Is it "unfair" if idolaters were put to death?

It pretty obvious what you believe the responsibility of the state should be under a theonomy.

And my question to you was -

Originally Posted by TGBTG

And then in 1 Cor 6, we read:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,
10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Let's assume the whole world becomes evangelized with "true doctrine" and majority of the nations begin to follow biblical principles.
At what point do we no longer allow fornicators, idolaters, etc time to come to repentance and begin executing them per old testmant law?

Obviously, you and I do not agree with your stance on theonomy, but I'd really like to know your stance on the emboldened question.

I won't disturb you anymore if you respond...