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Old 10-26-2009, 10:19 AM
Sam's Avatar
Sam Sam is offline
Jesus' Name Pentecostal


 
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Church Planting and Expansion

Recently my brother-in-law was visiting from a neighboring state. I asked him, "How many UPC churches are there in ________ (the name of his city)?" He replied that there was only one. Surprised, I asked him, "Which one?" because I thought there were two, possibly three. He explained what happened.

There was a UPC church there which had been there for years. I had visited it a few times many years ago. Last time I was there was back in the 1970's. It had been pastored by the same man (Bro. A) for many years. The local district officials sent in a minister (I'll call him Bro. B) to "split the church" or "plant a rival UPC church." Bro. B began to visit all the members to build up support. Then he went to Bro. A and asked him to allow them to hold meetings in his building until they could get a building of their own. Bro. A refused. Bro. B took the matter to a secular court and it was decided there that the people who would be making up the new congregation had supported that church for years so they had a right to use the building for their meetings if they wanted to. Bro. A locked the door. Bro. B and his members removed the door to gain access and held meetings there. In time Bro. B and his group were able to get another building and moved. So, for a while there were two competing UPC churches there. Since then, Bro. B has joined the WWPF.

Many years ago (before I visited there) a group had left Bro. A and formed a competing church a few blocks away. The pastor (when I preached several times in the 1960's and 1970's) was with the AMA (Apostolic Ministerial Alliance). The AMA pastor died and now that church is either independent (in fellowship with the AMF) or pastored by an AMF minister.

Meanwhile, Bro. A has died and has been replaced by another UPC minister.

So, the church pastored by Bro. A for all those years is still UPC. The more recent split is no longer UPC but WPF. The older split is no longer AMA (I don't think that organization is still active) but is now AMF. The ALJC church in that town where I have preached back in the 1970's is no longer active. I don't know who is in that building now.

It has always bothered me the way Apostolic Churches have fought and split and refused to fellowship one another.
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  #2  
Old 10-26-2009, 10:29 AM
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*AQuietPlace* *AQuietPlace* is offline
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Re: Church Planting and Expansion

That would be funny if it wasn't sad.
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  #3  
Old 10-26-2009, 10:34 AM
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Digging4Truth Digging4Truth is offline
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Re: Church Planting and Expansion

Indeed...

We currently attend a UPC church. The nearest oneness church is about 35-40 miles up the road. Neither of these churches are large (One runs 50-60 and the other close to 100.)

It would benefit them both to fellowship one another. We were visiting the non UPC church and mentioned that it would be really great to have these churches fellowship. He agreed and said he would be excited to see such a thing happen (he is also the larger of the 2 churches).

We mentioned this to the UPC pastor & his wife and asked "Why don't we fellowship the church up the road". The very matter of fact reply was... "They're not UPC".


Good grief.

To be fair I must mention that, the 1-2 years I have been at this church they don't really fellowship any of the other UPC churches either. They go to HYC, Youth Congress etc but there is no local fellowship among any other oneness churches that I am aware of.

Man... when I was a kid growing up in UPC we knew ever other kid in every other UPC church in our district. UPC churches don't even fellowship one another much anymore in a lot of places.

Last edited by Digging4Truth; 10-26-2009 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 10-26-2009, 11:46 AM
coadie coadie is offline
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Re: Church Planting and Expansion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth View Post
Indeed...

We currently attend a UPC church. The nearest oneness church is about 35-40 miles up the road. Neither of these churches are large (One runs 50-60 and the other close to 100.)

It would benefit them both to fellowship one another. We were visiting the non UPC church and mentioned that it would be really great to have these churches fellowship. He agreed and said he would be excited to see such a thing happen (he is also the larger of the 2 churches).

We mentioned this to the UPC pastor & his wife and asked "Why don't we fellowship the church up the road". The very matter of fact reply was... "They're not UPC".


Good grief.

To be fair I must mention that, the 1-2 years I have been at this church they don't really fellowship any of the other UPC churches either. They go to HYC, Youth Congress etc but there is no local fellowship among any other oneness churches that I am aware of.

Man... when I was a kid growing up in UPC we knew ever other kid in every other UPC church in our district. UPC churches don't even fellowship one another much anymore in a lot of places.
part of our culture is "cocooning"

I suspect Amish have more fellowship contact with neighbors in a month than most others.
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  #5  
Old 10-26-2009, 03:04 PM
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TJJJ TJJJ is offline
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Re: Church Planting and Expansion

C'MON

The real reason that most UPC churches don't fellowship each other is TRUST!

Most of those churches will steal a saint in a new york second!

We have seen one here, one of those Metro Mission Wonder Works, they are not supposed to take anyone from another UPC work for 5 years, he's the bidggest sheep stealer around!

Then he wonders why none of the other men have anything to do with him!


FUNNY!
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  #6  
Old 10-26-2009, 03:26 PM
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Apocrypha Apocrypha is offline
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Re: Church Planting and Expansion

Most of the heavy and progressive church planting in the nation is happening way outside the UPC ranks. Groups of church planters like "The Assocation of Related Churches" and "Acts 29 Network" are where all the talented folks are going to learn how to have a church that will run 200-300 in the first year.
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Old 10-26-2009, 03:33 PM
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TJJJ TJJJ is offline
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Re: Church Planting and Expansion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Apocrypha View Post
Most of the heavy and progressive church planting in the nation is happening way outside the UPC ranks. Groups of church planters like "The Assocation of Related Churches" and "Acts 29 Network" are where all the talented folks are going to learn how to have a church that will run 200-300 in the first year.
2-300 in the first year! Wow! That is nothing but a mushroom work! Large on size but short on substance!

Mushrooms, here today gone tomorrow!


Psalms compares us to trees, slow growers but strong!
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Old 10-26-2009, 04:33 PM
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Still Figuring It Out.


 
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Re: Church Planting and Expansion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
C'MON

The real reason that most UPC churches don't fellowship each other is TRUST!

Most of those churches will steal a saint in a new york second!

We have seen one here, one of those Metro Mission Wonder Works, they are not supposed to take anyone from another UPC work for 5 years, he's the bidggest sheep stealer around!

Then he wonders why none of the other men have anything to do with him!


FUNNY!
I would say this...

Those who "sheep steal" are a bad lot.

Those who consider "sheep stealing" to be an issue must feel a sense of ownership over God's people & heritage.

How much more can you be a Lord over God's heritage than if you feel ownership over said heritage.

When both sides drop the "they're mine" concept then a lot of perceived walls will finally go away.
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  #9  
Old 10-26-2009, 06:44 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
Jesus' Name Pentecostal


 
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Location: near Cincinnati, Ohio
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Re: Church Planting and Expansion

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
2-300 in the first year! Wow! That is nothing but a mushroom work! Large on size but short on substance!

Mushrooms, here today gone tomorrow!


Psalms compares us to trees, slow growers but strong!
yeah,
like the 3000 on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:41)
like the others being added daily (Acts 2:47)
like the 5000 a few days later (Acts 4:4)
like the multitudes (Acts 5:14)
like a the great company of priests (Acts 6:7)

all of this in the first year
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  #10  
Old 10-27-2009, 08:44 AM
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A.W. Bowman A.W. Bowman is offline
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Re: Church Planting and Expansion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Digging4Truth View Post
I would say this...

Those who "sheep steal" are a bad lot.

Those who consider "sheep stealing" to be an issue must feel a sense of ownership over God's people & heritage.

How much more can you be a Lord over God's heritage than if you feel ownership over said heritage.

When both sides drop the "they're mine" concept then a lot of perceived walls will finally go away.
Thank you!

It starts with a change in our world view. First it was the church (the body of Christ) that mets in so-n-so's house. Today is it is known as Pastor's so-n-so's church (both building and people). The shift in speech is not that great, but devastating. The change in mindset promotes ownership. Then, when one adds to the mix the UPCI required teaching that the sheep are to pay a personal tribute to their shepherd, the question of ownership of sheep become a financial issue of a very personal nature. It becomes a question of protecting a financial resource.

It is not a question of how many souls have been added to the kingdom of God, rather the question has become how many tithe payers have we added to our congregation?

That's why numbers do count, and in many places 'sheep stealing' is a hanging offence - and fellowship with other local assemblies is frequently forbidden and any new churches must move way down the road from us (there are not enough lost people to go around)..
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