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  #171  
Old 02-08-2011, 06:12 AM
DAII DAII is offline
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Re: The Difference between PCI, PAJC and the New H

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Originally Posted by aegsm76 View Post
Is SDG the same poster as DA, DAII and Daniel Alicia?
That's what it appears from the posts, here.
The 18000 and 9 posts now under SDG are mine. Sancho - it was my first incarnation.

SDG was not the original user name.

That's a lot of windmills.
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  #172  
Old 02-08-2011, 07:43 AM
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Re: The Difference between PCI, PAJC and the New H

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Originally Posted by DAII View Post
The 18000 and 9 posts now under SDG are mine. Sancho - it was my first incarnation.

SDG was not the original user name.

That's a lot of windmills.
Daniel became incarnated... see how closely he follows Jesus footsteps :P
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  #173  
Old 02-08-2011, 02:40 PM
aegsm76 aegsm76 is offline
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Re: The Difference between PCI, PAJC and the New H

Thanks DA!
I was trying to read the thread and getting mental whiplash!
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  #174  
Old 02-08-2011, 05:22 PM
Sabby Sabby is offline
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Re: The Difference between PCI, PAJC and the New H

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Originally Posted by ManOfWord View Post
I think Dan's original post is very much on target. It almost takes an "outsider" to see it. As most of you know, I spent quite a bit of time in the UPC and consider it my spiritual "heritage" if you will. However, I have also found that there is quite a bit of fear when it comes to examination of where we are today and how we got here. It seems that many are fearful of examining anything that that would hint of anything needing adjustment for fear of the whole thing toppling down.

Why do some fear the fact that G.T Haywood changed his mind on some things or anyone else for that matter. There were clearly some one-steppers who became three-steppers and three-steppers who became one-steppers. (we all know which "steppers" are right)

I also see fear when it comes to the organization itself. When will we realize that God doesn't need the UPC or any organization for that matter? If an organization hinders what God is wanting to do, then I say, "let 'er fall" and let the thing that God wants to birth be born. Change is what puts fear into most men's hearts and change is the only thing that is constant. The sooner we embrace it, the better off we'll be and we may even see more of the moving of the hand of God!!

At least that's my view, anyway.
. Amen, MOW!
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  #175  
Old 09-17-2011, 10:48 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: The Difference between PCI, PAJC and the New H

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Originally Posted by SDG View Post
I for one am a little weary of the attempts by some on the forum who claim heritage w/ the original PAJCers and 3 steppers of yesteryear.

Yet, I am thankful for internet forums that allow truth to be spoken.

For about 2 to 3 generations, we know that men of diverse beliefs on the idea of New Birth tried to fellowship and co-exist under a noble experiment and failed primarily when they were forced to leave the UPCI in the 1990's.

Although the same Fundamental Doctrine that asked both sides to not contend for the disunity of the faith ... and is touted by today's posers as part of the AS that ALL MINISTERS MUST ADHERE TO ... was ignored by hate-filled radicals, almost from the fellowship's inception, and by those who have remained in this presently waning fellowship.

Yes, the merger sought to unite a group of primarily white Oneness preachers under Acts 2:38. The fact is the only thing these men had in common was their shared belief of the Godhead and performing baptism in Jesus name. As to the significance of Acts 2:38 and the New Birth they differed greatly.

Shamefully, today those who rewrite and skew our history leave out important components of our shared Apostolic Oneness history while lifting the banner of our Acts 2:38 heritage.

As a person who was raised in the Oneness Apostolic movement I know the emphasis put on the idea of Heritage ...

it is a value reified by the culture.

It is harped on from pulpits ... it is a central theme of many conferences ... and is a focal point of a lot of the literature I've read since my childhood.

History is presented as to scaffold this value of 3-step Holiness Apostolic heritage and used to validate their existence and the extra-biblical truths held by many.

Just early this year, A Mangun stepped up before those at BOTT 2007 ... making his famous/infamous remarks in support of television advertising ... and as part of his presentation he sought to use photos of his dad ... and persuaded the crowd that he was still TRUE TO HIS HERITAGE.

The heritage badge is arrogantly worn by the radicalized Ultracon zealots who use snippets of skewed history to validate their heritage and make themselves victims of the schism of the early Pentecostal movement called the "New Issue".

Today's PCI Oneness Apostolic compromisers and charismatics are belittled as not being true or embarrassed of their heritage ... and even MUSH.

What is bothersome and disingenous in all of this is that those who glorify and champion their heritage ... while playing the victim and stating they monopolize ALL TRUTH ....

fail to realize that in their zeal to revise history books AND present the truth... they are the one's not true to the heritage ... our history truly reveals.

The truth is ... that the early Oneness pioneer GIANTS like Haywood, Urshan, Goss, Clyde Haney ... and most others never considered Trinitarians as lost ... fellowshipped with them regularly ... preached in their events and had them preach in their own.

Facts show that PCI men like Goss and Small even started fellowships w/ Trinitarians in an effort to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as evident w/ the early formation of the Pentecostal Assemblies of Canada.

Even the General Assemblies, circa 1918, here in the States allow for Trinitarians and Oneness believers to shortly co-exist with the New Issue not being a centerpoint.

Yet, by 1925-30 ... and attempt to create solely Oneness Apostolic entities was marked by some success but also fragmentation and division ... the latter is still w/ us today.

Apostolic whites and blacks chose to divide over racial lines.

When the UPCI formed the real radical zealot 3 -steppers stayed w/ the real PAJC as not to fellowship w/ those "weak on doctrine"

Even from the onset of the UPCI merger, criticisms abounded when Goss, a one-stepper took office as the first General Supt. of the newly formed UPCI the radicals chose to take him out of office because of his "weakness" ... succeeding in the early 50's. This is the same one-stepping Howard Goss, that believed BAPTISTS WERE SAVED.

The org continued to remain somewhat unified throughout the 50's to 70's suffering various schisms ... and then the radical zealots rose up again in the 1970's when questions of which New Birth doctrine was being preached overseas, namely Colombia, and add demand the addition of "for the remission of sins" to the Fundamental Doctrine.

In 1990, the 3 step radicals finally succeeded in doing away w/ the one steppers w/ the passing of the Westburg resolution and the institution of the Affirmation Statement.

Those of the Oneness 1 step persuasion realized that co-existence w/ a group that seek disfellowship rather than fellowship were shown the door ....

With the post AS schism of the 1990's, many of these 2cd/3rd generation one-stepping Apostolics had no problems joining w/ Trinitarians in fellowships like Global Network. Why? Because they realized that most of the radicalized 3 steppers would never consider them as truly brethren.
The facts are plain ... 2cd and 3rd generation PCIers, especially from Ten. and Canada can tell you ... the stories of what really happened during the noble failed experiment. Once again, history paints a truly different picture than those zealouts who are far removed from the hetitage of the past.

Today the new "Heritage" posers claim unity in purpose and direction w/ the PCIers and PAJCers of the past... yet they still seek to disfellowship and berate their views and doctrine TODAY.

Ironically, today this spirit of disunity has ripped the UPCI again. The very AS that sought doctrinal purity is pushing the ultra-radicals out.

In conclusion, facts show that the early PCIers and PAJCers had very different views with those who will not consider Trinitarians as saved and will not fellowship w/ those who look, dress, act and believe like them.

This is in sharp contrast, several generations later. ... of a radicalized element within our Oneness ranks that through propaganda and lack of scholarship have whitewashed our history and true heritage while disfellowshipping even eating their own]their own without abandon.

Is truth limited to repeating the mantra of Acts 2:38 ... presenting soteriological and Christological views? Are we not to be truthful in all things ... such as our history and applicatation of bible-based holiness principle?

Those who drumbeat heritage are nominally Apostolics ...

To misquote my friend Ferd ...

"there is a very big difference between what is the new fangled PAJC and what was the light PAJC view of old."


Yes, both sides have evolved ... with 3 steppers making their circles smaller and smaller ... with continued in-fighting among each other ...

while PCIers have returned to their roots of open fellowship and seeking unity w/ the entire Body of Christ.

But I still love the posers.


bump to read later
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  #176  
Old 07-14-2012, 05:59 PM
Saul Stephen Saul Stephen is offline
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Re: The Difference between PCI, PAJC and the New H

I remember many brothers of whom you spoke, Bro. Goss was indeed my friend. the one step came from his early friendships, as well as many other preachers. just believe on the Lord, and the sinners prayer, comes to light at this time. the argument, that became very common then, at first privately, and in time, openly, was this, when is the blood applied? do you remember this? I am a very old man, my family came into Pentecost in 1914-16. Col. O. W. T. Witherspoon.. the answer soon came to full light that the blood is applied in baptism, in Jesus name. the new life was in Christ, we are indeed baptized into Christ. we arise in the likeness of his resurrection, a new creature. even those who refrained to admit this glorious truth, did so privately. bro. Goss. was one who humbly admitted to this revelation, as well as many other great men of the cross. there is no argument here, only stating something that I know to be the truth.
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  #177  
Old 07-14-2012, 06:40 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Re: The Difference between PCI, PAJC and the New H

Quote:
Originally Posted by Encryptus View Post
The problem with arguing doctrine around the word "for". In spanish we have two words translated as "for" Por and para. It helps with exact meaning.

The "for" in the verse ... for remission of sins has TWO possibilities:

For= in order to (first definition)
For= because of (second definition)

If first then the act of baptism remits sin. If so it would be impossible to receive HG before water baptism.

If second then you are baptism, for reason of your sins being remitted.

Frankly the verse seems to be supported in the latter view.
Sadly, the Reina Valera version I have (copyright 1988) says;
"...Arrepentios, y bauticese cada uno de vosotros en el nombre de Jesucristo para perdon de los pecados..." which means "in order to" doesn't it?
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  #178  
Old 07-25-2012, 10:13 PM
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Sam Sam is offline
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Re: The Difference between PCI, PAJC and the New H

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Originally Posted by Saul Stephen View Post
I remember many brothers of whom you spoke, Bro. Goss was indeed my friend. the one step came from his early friendships, as well as many other preachers. just believe on the Lord, and the sinners prayer, comes to light at this time. the argument, that became very common then, at first privately, and in time, openly, was this, when is the blood applied? do you remember this? I am a very old man, my family came into Pentecost in 1914-16. Col. O. W. T. Witherspoon.. the answer soon came to full light that the blood is applied in baptism, in Jesus name. the new life was in Christ, we are indeed baptized into Christ. we arise in the likeness of his resurrection, a new creature. even those who refrained to admit this glorious truth, did so privately. bro. Goss. was one who humbly admitted to this revelation, as well as many other great men of the cross. there is no argument here, only stating something that I know to be the truth.
I never met Bro. Witherspoon nor Bro. Goss. I did not come into Pentecost until 1955 as a teenager.
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  #179  
Old 07-26-2012, 05:38 PM
Saul Stephen Saul Stephen is offline
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Re: The Difference between PCI, PAJC and the New H

Bro. Witherspoon, was head of the PAofJC, a very strong oneness-group His church in Col. O. was founded in 1914. At one time he had the largest oneness church in America. A very powerful church, Bro. Urshans father came there regularly, as well as his two brothers. along with Ooton,Fuss, Stairs, Parent.Haywood, and Bro. Huxtra. yes, Bro Goss later, This was my family's home church. Until we all come into the full knowledge of the truth, let us have the spirit of humility, as brothern I guess we had better respect of each church as sovereign within its self. was brother Witherspoon strong on the message? yes!, and when they gathered there they respected his authority.
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