MERRY MITHRA - Christmas is pagan.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Esaias

You are insane.

Not insane. Just capable of answering the wrong post. My apologies. I was not meaning to address you.

The calendar you posted is fine, but what does it prove in your estimation?

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by Originalist

In other words, no, you could not provide the document I asked for.

Just been reading the back and forth, and I really do appreciate both sides of the argument.

Just so Im understanding what you're looking for. Are you wanting scripture that stats not to celebrate the Lords birth in any way, fashion, or form? Or outside scriptural documents that supports the celebration of the Lords birth is indeed pagan?

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Nicodemus1968

Just been reading the back and forth, and I really do appreciate both sides of the argument.

Just so Im understanding what you're looking for. Are you wanting scripture that stats not to celebrate the Lords birth in any way, fashion, or form? Or outside scriptural documents that supports the celebration of the Lords birth is indeed pagan?

I am looking for concrete proof that Christianity knowingly adapted pagan customs, god, and holidays when Christmas was instituted. Scholars seem to be divided on this. I have found several who say the pagans actually stole Christmas. I want to see a primary/original source document from the day that proves there was some sort of plan to paganize the church with Christmas.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I am looking for concrete proof that Christianity knowingly adapted pagan customs, god, and holidays when Christmas was instituted. Scholars seem to be divided on this. I have found several who say the pagans actually stole Christmas. I want to see a primary/original source document from the day that proves there was some sort of plan to paganize the church with Christmas.

What scholars aren't divided on, is that Xmas is Western/Eastern Roman practice. Just as icons, statutes, beads, and veneration of saints is part of the Western/Eastern Roman Church so is Xmas. The issue isn't really paganizing the church, it is about Romanizing the church. Still waiting to see where the apostles introduced celebrations for baby Jesus.

[Originalist]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What scholars aren't divided on, is that Xmas is Western/Eastern Roman practice. Just as icons, statutes, beads, and veneration of saints is part of the Western/Eastern Roman Church so is Xmas. The issue isn't really paganizing the church, it is about Romanizing the church. Still waiting to see where the apostles introduced celebrations for baby Jesus.

I agree that the Roman church started this. But the fact is, what we call "Christmas" today bears little resemblance to what the first Roman Christmas looked like. The celebration is not even really about "the baby Jesus" as much as it is a somber time to reflect upon God being manifest in the flesh. That celebration is not tainted just because Rome invented something for whatever reason.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

What scholars aren't divided on, is that Xmas is Western/Eastern Roman practice. Just as icons, statutes, beads, and veneration of saints are part of the Western/Eastern Roman Church so is Xmas. The issue isn't paganizing the church, it is about Romanizing the church. Still waiting to see where the apostles introduced celebrations for baby Jesus.

You are right here. Although the tradition of most Christian holidays may be institutions of the catholic church, they still are not idolatry. I have no scripture supporting any NT holiday. Even Pentecost was a Jewish holiday, and the 120 were participating because of special specific instructions they were given by Christ to tarry in Jerusalem. We have liberty here, but we are wrong to lie to our children concerning mythical figure such as Santa and the Easter bunny.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Originalist

I am looking for concrete proof that Christianity knowingly adapted pagan customs, god, and holidays when Christmas was instituted. Scholars seem to be divided on this. I have found several who say the pagans actually stole Christmas. I want to see a primary/original source document from the day that proves there was some sort of plan to paganize the church with Christmas.

I once had an abridged version of a book called Catholicism against itself. And Catholic writings admitted openly that they took Pagan elements and use them in worship such as candles. In their mind, it was maybe the same thing as Jesus conquering death, because they would take a pagan Temple and convert it to Christian Church to show that the truth had victory over error. I've never heard them reason it like this, but Jesus took The Devil's weapon of death and used it against the devil. So, they actually referred to it as baptizing those rites into the Catholic Church. They openly acknowledge that. I don't believe we should do that at all because Ezekiel chapter 20 tells us to not mix God's name with idols.

[good samaritan]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I once had an abridged version of a book called Catholicism against itself. And Catholic writings admitted openly that they took Pagan elements and use them in worship such as candles. In their mind, it was maybe the same thing as Jesus conquering death, because they would take a pagan Temple and convert it to Christian Church to show that the truth had victory over error. I've never heard them reason it like this, but Jesus took The Devil's weapon of death and used it against the devil. So, they actually referred to it as baptizing those rites into the Catholic Church. They openly acknowledge that. I don't believe we should do that at all because Ezekiel chapter 20 tells us to not mix God's name with idols.

I wonder what the intent was initially. For instance, if you are a Christian convert from a pagan society, the religion has become part of your culture and not just your religion.The people who have lived under that false religion cannot simply cut out certain things. To permit pagan converts to continue in some of their customs provided they are no longer worshiping those false gods seems like their liberty. Although, as the church grew in a society, culture would progressively change in a direction that brings glory to God.


Our calendar may have pagan connections, but the U.S. Government would have to officially change our calendars. It is too interwoven into our way of life to just say I am going to quit using it and go to another calendar. I Dont advocate Santa teaching

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by good samaritan

I wonder what the intent was initially. For instance, if you are a Christian convert from a pagan society, the religion has become part of your culture and not just your religion.The people who have lived under that false religion cannot simply cut out certain things. To permit pagan converts to continue in some of their customs provided they are no longer worshiping those false gods seems like their liberty. Although, as the church grew in a society, culture would progressively change in a direction that brings glory to God.


Our calendar may have pagan connections, but the U.S. Government would have to officially change our calendars. It is too interwoven into our way of life to just say I am going to quit using it and go to another calendar. I Dont advocate Santa teaching

I think people can go into fanatical directions with this.

For example, the days of the week are named after pagan gods. When we speak those words on those days, those who claim it doesn't matter what intent's in the heart. if we do the same action they did, it's false worship to false gods, we are honouring those gods according to some.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think people can go into fanatical directions with this.

For example, the days of the week are named after pagan gods. When we speak those words on those days, those who claim it doesn't matter what intent's in the heart. if we do the same action they did, it's false worship to false gods, we are honouring those gods according to some.

The issue isn't using pagan names for things like the days of the week. The Bible itself uses Babylonian names for certain months. Israelites occasionally were given and used names derived from pagan gods - like Mordechai (variation of Marduk) and Esther (variation of Ishtar), Belteshazzar (which includes the name Bel), etc.

The issue is taking pagan religious rites and trying to apply them to the worship of God, attempting to worship God by means of pagan religious rites, taking the core elements of heathen demon worship and trying to adapt them to the worship of God. That is explicitly forbidden by God.

In the case of Christmas, we have the pagan holy day of the Nativity of the Invincible Sun (Mithra, Helios, Baal, etc) being "adapted" to the worship of God in the form of a Catholic Mass feast day, which in itself is a variation on pagan religious rites (Mystery rites, especially of Mithra, the number 1 rival of Christianity in the first several hundred years after Christ). Protestants want to keep the Catholic tradition because "muh funz" but don't want to look all vatican-y so they strip out some of the overt catholic stuff but keep the core ideas along with the entirely secular "buy stuff" motif.

Pentecostals have taken stands against purely secular stuff like sports and tv and women wearing makeup and men's neckties and most don't bat an eye. But point a knife at the sacred cows of CATHOLIC AND PAGAN RELIGIOUS RITES and hoo boy watch the fur fly.

Really makes a person think. IF they're a thinking person, that is.