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View Poll Results: Does Oneness teach a created Logos?
Yes, first thing God made 1 10.00%
No, the Logos always was 9 90.00%
Both views coexist within Oneness 0 0%
Don't know 0 0%
Voters: 10. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 09-13-2019, 03:43 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Did God create the Word?

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Before doing anything else, did God create or make the Word? Out of Himself? Does Oneness teach that the Logos is a created or made (begotten?) thing?
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  #2  
Old 09-13-2019, 04:33 PM
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Re: Did God create the Word?

The key to the answer is the phrase OUT OF HIMSELF.

Biblical Oneness understands SOMETHING was made, born, created at the beginning.

If not the logos, what?
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Old 09-13-2019, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Before doing anything else, did God create or make the Word? Out of Himself? Does Oneness teach that the Logos is a created or made (begotten?) thing?
Nothing about God was created.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:17 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Did God create the Word?

Quote:
John 1:1-3

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word WAS GOD.

The same was in the beginning with God.

All things were made by HIM and without HIM was not anything made that was made.
Whatever the word was it was WITH GOD. Whatever the word was, WAS GOD.

All things that were made were made by the Logos. Nothing that was made was made without HIM.

The Logos was PERSONAL. All things were made by HIM.

Is a voice a him? Is a thought a him? Is a plan a him?

Thought, plan, or voice is not a "him". So we look elsewhere in scripture to understand the Logos.

Quote:
Hebrews 1:1-3

1God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
We read earlier the Logos that was with God created all things. Paul tells us here God made all things by HIS SON.

Can we safely say the Logos then is the same as the Son? Unless we want to believe Paul contradicted John I think we can. Does Paul identify this Son? Apparently so.

Quote:
3Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
The Son he refers to is not ANOTHER PERSON OF GOD.

The Son he refers to is THE EXPRESS IMAGE OF.......HIS.....PERSON.

This EXPRESS IMAGE was the Logos. Remember the Logos was WITH GOD.

God was omnipresent Spirit that FILLED THE HEAVENS AND EARTH. As such he had no image. If he were to interact PERSONALLY with creation he needed one.

Thus his first creation would be an image or form of HIMSELF. Not someone else. Paul said this EXPRESS IMAGE was HIS PERSON.

In the beginning means the beginning of creation. When God was ready to make his creation he FORMED A PERSONAL IMAGE OF HIMSELF.

Isaiah 43:10

Quote:
10Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God FORMED, neither shall there be after me.
So God before he did any creating FORMED this "person" to be HIS PERSON.

So the express image of his person (not another person) was with God the OMNIPRESENT SPIRIT in the beginning. How do we know this image was before ALL THINGS?

Because he made all things BY the IMAGE.

God had a certain image in mind when he brought it forth at the beginning. It would look like his Son Jesus Christ. Paul said God created the worlds by his Son. He then tells us the Son is his express image.

So again the Son is his own image. Not another person but HIS....PERSON. An image or spiritual body for himself to be able to work through and interact with his creation.

This is what Paul had in mind when he wrote:

Eph. 3:9

Quote:
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
So far we have seen that the Logos was with God but also was God. With God as his visible image. Was God because he himself was in the image. The first thing God ever made was an image of HIMSELF.

That image looked like Jesus Christ whom he would become when he took on flesh.

Part 1
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:24 PM
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Re: Did God create the Word?

So the first thing God created was the Son? Back in eternity past? Eternal Son? Wow.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:25 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Did God create the Word?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume View Post
Nothing about God was created.
Exactly.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:28 PM
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Re: Did God create the Word?

Quote:
Originally Posted by michael the disciple View Post
whatever the word was it was with god. Whatever the word was, was god.

All things that were made were made by the logos. Nothing that was made was made without him.

The logos was personal. All things were made by him.

Is a voice a him? Is a thought a him? Is a plan a him?

Thought, plan, or voice is not a "him". So we look elsewhere in scripture to understand the logos.



We read earlier the logos that was with god created all things. Paul tells us here god made all things by his son.

Can we safely say the logos then is the same as the son? Unless we want to believe paul contradicted john i think we can. Does paul identify this son? Apparently so.



The son he refers to is not another person of god.

the son he refers to is the express image of.......his.....person.

This express image was the logos. Remember the logos was with god.

god was omnipresent spirit that filled the heavens and earth. as such he had no image. If he were to interact personally with creation he needed one.

Thus his first creation would be an image or form of himself. Not someone else. Paul said this express image was his person.

in the beginning means the beginning of creation. When god was ready to make his creation he formed a personal image of himself.

Isaiah 43:10



so god before he did any creating formed this "person" to be his person.

so the express image of his person (not another person) was with god the omnipresent spirit in the beginning. How do we know this image was before all things?

because he made all things by the image.

god had a certain image in mind when he brought it forth at the beginning. It would look like his son jesus christ. Paul said god created the worlds by his son. He then tells us the son is his express image.

So again the son is his own image. Not another person but his....person. an image or spiritual body for himself to be able to work through and interact with his creation.

This is what paul had in mind when he wrote:

Eph. 3:9



so far we have seen that the logos was with god but also was god. With god as his visible image. Was god because he himself was in the image. The first thing god ever made was an image of himself.

that image looked like jesus christ whom he would become when he took on flesh.

Part 1
The Him IS GOD!!!!
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:31 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Did God create the Word?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
So the first thing God created was the Son? Back in eternity past? Eternal Son? Wow.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:38 PM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Did God create the Word?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
So God before he did any creating FORMED this "person" to be HIS PERSON.

So the express image of his person (not another person) was with God the OMNIPRESENT SPIRIT in the beginning. How do we know this image was before ALL THINGS?

Was this like a spacesuit God made back in eternity past?

I'm not being funny.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:43 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Did God create the Word?

Part 2

Now we will see Paul teaching the same thing to the Colossians.

Col. 1:13-17
Quote:
13Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son: 14In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:
15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 17And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
So remember. John said all things were made by the Logos. Then Paul said all things were made by Gods Son which he defines as the EXPRESS IMAGE of.......HIS PERSON.

Now to the Colossians Paul teaches exactly the same thing. All things were made by his Son verse 13, whom he defines as the IMAGE OF THE INVISIBLE GOD, THE FIRSTBORN OF EVERY CREATURE in verse 14.

Can we now begin to see if the Logos made all things John 1:3 and God made all things through his personal image Heb. 1:3 and created all things through Jesus Christ Eph. 3:9 that the Logos was everything we see here when Paul speaks of creation?

Yet he calls the Son whom he has attributed the work of creation......the FIRSTBORN of all creation. God brought forth an image or form from himself......the logos was God. Or better yet God (himself) was the logos.

The firstborn of all creation was when God formed an image of HIMSELF.

HIM FROM HIM.

As the omnipresent Spirit God formed.....HIMSELF.

The logos, form, image was WITH GOD the omnipresent Spirit. Yet the form was God himself putting his eternal life into it and calling it his Son in retrospect.

This is what was made flesh and dwelled among us.
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