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Deep Waters 'Deep Calleth Unto Deep ' -The place to go for Ministry discussions. Please keep it civil. Remember to discuss the issues, not each other.


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Old 09-13-2019, 06:17 PM
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Canaan Cursed and not Ham

Gen 9:20 And Noah began to be an husbandman, and he planted a vineyard:
Gen 9:21 And he drank of the wine, and was drunken; and he was uncovered within his tent.
Gen 9:22 And Ham, the father of Canaan, saw the nakedness of his father, and told his two brethren without.
Gen 9:23 And Shem and Japheth took a garment, and laid it upon both their shoulders, and went backward, and covered the nakedness of their father; and their faces were backward, and they saw not their father's nakedness.
Gen 9:24 And Noah awoke from his wine, and knew what his younger son had done unto him.
Gen 9:25 And he said, Cursed be Canaan; a servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
Gen 9:26 And he said, Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
Gen 9:27 God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

So I was Bible reading the other day and saw this verse again.

I want to address three points and put them out there for discussion.

1- What did Ham do?
2- Why was Canaan cursed for that and not Ham
3- Why or what was the curse for Canaan and is that curse still existant?
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:24 PM
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Re: Canaan Cursed and not Ham

One of the false doctrines that is propagated, even today, is the false doctrine of the Hamatic Curse.

There are those who teach that Hamatic people, people with darker skin, ie the african tribes usually being the target here, are somehow cursed with the idea of being slaves the rest of their lives.

The error in this doctrine is that the curse that stemmed from Ham's transgression was ONLY passed on to Canaan and his descendants.

When we look at Canaan, his descendants were the people of the Land of Canaan that the Israelites went in and took their land over. They were NOT the black skinned people of Africa or the Indians, the Chinese or the American Indians.

They were the people who the Israelites fought with when they went into the land, the people that God said:

Lev 18:24 Defile not ye yourselves in any of these things: for in all these the nations are defiled which I cast out before you:
Lev 18:25 And the land is defiled: therefore I do visit the iniquity thereof upon it, and the land itself vomiteth out her inhabitants.
Lev 18:26 Ye shall therefore keep my statutes and my judgments, and shall not commit any of these abominations; neither any of your own nation, nor any stranger that sojourneth among you:
Lev 18:27 (For all these abominations have the men of the land done, which were before you, and the land is defiled
Lev 18:28 That the land spew not you out also, when ye defile it, as it spewed out the nations that were before you.

We see in Lev that this chapter is dealing with sexual abominations, incest, beastiality, etc, and for those reasons they would be destroyed.

These were the Canaanites who were cursed by Noah.
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Old 09-13-2019, 06:30 PM
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Re: Canaan Cursed and not Ham

so we ask ourselves,

What did Ham do?

There are four schools of thought here covering this sin that is so elusive.

1- Just simply looked at his father's nakedness... voyeurism
2- Attacked his father by castration, trying to usurp his authority.
3- Sexually assaulted his father, perversion and incest
4- Sexually assaulted his mother, whereby she became pregnant with a son named Canaan. This position is gaining traction with many theologians because of the wording of the uncovering word and for the fact that twice Ham was named the father of Canaan. Many feel that because of this theory that Noah then cursed Canaan and not the other sons of Ham.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:01 PM
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Re: Canaan Cursed and not Ham

So let's take the idea that Ham did commit incest with his mother and that the fruit of that incest was Canaan. This would explain the overrunning of that land with the sexual perversion that it had and that brought on the curse of God and in the end their final destruction.

I do find it interesting that it is in Leviticus 18 that both the sins of the land are laid out (sexual sins) and that their final judging is set forth.

The sons of Canaan were...

1Ch 1:13 And Canaan begot Zidon his firstborn, and Heth,
1Ch 1:14 The Jebusite also, and the Amorite, and the Girgashite,
1Ch 1:15 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,
1Ch 1:16 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite.

Zidon, - Sidon
Heth, -
the Jebusite - (Jerusalem) Amorites, Girgashite, Hivite, Arkite, Sinite, Arvadite, Zemarite, Hamathite

All of these were the inhabitants of the land of Canaan and were, by Noah, cursed to serve their brothers the people of Shem and the people of Japeth.

Again, these were the ones who Israel came against and begin to displace.

These were the Sidonions, (Tyre and the other cities), the Amorites, all the other Ites, and it seems like the Philistines being the descendants of them as well being a Phoenician people.

These Hamatic descendents alone were the ones cursed for their father's sin.

It is these people who became the continual enemies of Israel and even into the 20th century Yassar Arafat claimed, (Without merit) that he was a descendent of the Canaanite and the Jebusite people.
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Old 09-13-2019, 07:04 PM
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Re: Canaan Cursed and not Ham

I find it also interesting that this area populated with these "cursed" people were the ones that Jesus reached out to.

Mat 15:21 Then Jesus went thence, and departed into the coasts of Tyre and Sidon.
Mat 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.

It was a woman of Sidon that had, in the words of Jesus, Great Faith!

Mat 15:28 Then Jesus answered and said unto her, O woman, great is thy faith: be it unto thee even as thou wilt. And her daughter was made whole from that very hour.
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Old 09-14-2019, 12:00 PM
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Re: Canaan Cursed and not Ham

Not sure if Ham committed a homosexual act as some say, because seeing one's nakedness implies that elsewhere. But I believe Canaan was cursed and not Ham because Ham was Noah's son and did this to him, so Ham's son would be cursed to follow suit.

And the curse of Canaan was to be slaves to Israel in the land of Canaan, which did happen when Israel entered the promised land. I never gave any thought as to whether this is still in effect today.
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Old 09-15-2019, 10:09 AM
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Re: Canaan Cursed and not Ham

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
So let's take the idea that Ham did commit incest with his mother and that the fruit of that incest was Canaan. This would explain the overrunning of that land with the sexual perversion that it had and that brought on the curse of God and in the end their final destruction.

I do find it interesting that it is in Leviticus 18 that both the sins of the land are laid out (sexual sins) and that their final judging is set forth.

The sons of Canaan were...

1Ch 1:13 And Canaan begot Zidon his firstborn, and Heth,
1Ch 1:14 The Jebusite also, and the Amorite, and the Girgashite,
1Ch 1:15 And the Hivite, and the Arkite, and the Sinite,
1Ch 1:16 And the Arvadite, and the Zemarite, and the Hamathite.

Zidon, - Sidon
Heth, -
the Jebusite - (Jerusalem) Amorites, Girgashite, Hivite, Arkite, Sinite, Arvadite, Zemarite, Hamathite

All of these were the inhabitants of the land of Canaan and were, by Noah, cursed to serve their brothers the people of Shem and the people of Japeth.

Again, these were the ones who Israel came against and begin to displace.

These were the Sidonions, (Tyre and the other cities), the Amorites, all the other Ites, and it seems like the Philistines being the descendants of them as well being a Phoenician people.

These Hamatic descendents alone were the ones cursed for their father's sin.

It is these people who became the continual enemies of Israel and even into the 20th century Yassar Arafat claimed, (Without merit) that he was a descendent of the Canaanite and the Jebusite people.
I have understood the subject as you presented - that Ham had relations with Noah's wife producing Canaan, who was prophetically cursed by Noah to be a people of servants to the nations of Shem and Japheth, which historically they were.

Although, it seems the wording used is a bit out of the ordinary, compare with Jacob's rebuke and demotion of Reuben for a similar sin.

As to does it (the curse) continue today? Esau married Canaanite women in defiance of his parents' ethnocentric "bigotry against Canaanites", so the Edomites are somewhat a branch of Canaanite stock. Yet, there are other prophecies concerning Esau and the Edomites that mitigate and modify things. So a key question is, are the Edomites still around?
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Old 09-15-2019, 10:12 AM
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Re: Canaan Cursed and not Ham

It should be remembered the curse was to be servants, not perverts. Their abominations were basically their own doing. Although, being cursed could likely have made them more susceptible to things. Nevertheless, Israel was blessed, yet became just as bad as the Canaanites.
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Old 09-15-2019, 10:18 AM
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Re: Canaan Cursed and not Ham

Quote:
Originally Posted by TJJJ View Post
One of the false doctrines that is propagated, even today, is the false doctrine of the Hamatic Curse.

There are those who teach that Hamatic people, people with darker skin, ie the african tribes usually being the target here, are somehow cursed with the idea of being slaves the rest of their lives.

The error in this doctrine is that the curse that stemmed from Ham's transgression was ONLY passed on to Canaan and his descendants.

When we look at Canaan, his descendants were the people of the Land of Canaan that the Israelites went in and took their land over. They were NOT the black skinned people of Africa or the Indians, the Chinese or the American Indians.
A strong evidence that the Hamites aren't any of those people, either. The so called "curse of Ham upon Negroes" is a 19th century theory that has no basis in anything remotely approaching reality.
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