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  #181  
Old 05-12-2021, 04:11 PM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
In regards to "proper baptism" we need to account for this:

Acts 22:16 KJV
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Who does the "calling" here?
The one being baptized.
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  #182  
Old 05-12-2021, 05:19 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
God will judge people by the Word.

Miracles and great deeds do not earn salvation:

Matthew 7:21-27 KJV
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. [24] Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: [25] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. [26] And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: [27] And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.
The rebuke is about “work iniquity”. The illustration about the rock is about the teachings from Matt 5 to 7, which touches righteousness, holiness, prayer, faith, etc...

You can make a point that it applies to Oneness vs Trinity and baptism formula believed as the traditional passed down dogma (not the false teachers actually coming up with it) but still, the immediate context is not about that.
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  #183  
Old 05-12-2021, 07:03 PM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
The rebuke is about “work iniquity”. The illustration about the rock is about the teachings from Matt 5 to 7, which touches righteousness, holiness, prayer, faith, etc...

You can make a point that it applies to Oneness vs Trinity and baptism formula believed as the traditional passed down dogma (not the false teachers actually coming up with it) but still, the immediate context is not about that.
Work iniquity is literally do lawlessness, ie acting contrary to the law of God. The context is in the opening line: Not everyone who says to me "Lord, lord" will enter the kingdom, but those who do the will of my Father. The rock represents the doctrine (teaching) of Christ. Those who follow His word are secure, those who don't are not. "Mighty works" and miracles are not the litmus test, obedience is.

In regards to the trinitarian issue, as I pointed out Acts 22:16 indicates the one who calls on the Name in baptism is the one being baptised, not the one doing the baptising. People who perform baptism of others are given instructions as to how it is to be done, but where is the crux of the matter? What the baptizee does? Or what the baptizer does?

That's what I was getting at. So the resolution of the issue requires that we take that question into account, I believe.
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  #184  
Old 05-14-2021, 01:52 PM
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
When you read church history, it is hard to say what you are saying. You hear people persecuted, receiving the Holy Spirit speaking in tongues, great miracles among them, even resurrections, practicing holiness, and many martyred, yet still baptizing in the titles and believing in the Trinity.

There are three camps in Apostolic Pentecostal groups regarding that:

A) God will judge people by what they know
B) It can't be told what the destiny of those cases are. We trust God with those cases that He will do what it is right. We don't gamble, so keep preaching the truth, and defending it, that if you believe in Christ and you obey Acts 2.38 you will be saved.
C) If they believed in Christ and repented and all that, but they didn't complete Acts 2.38, they are in Hell, regardless of whether they heard the truth and rejected or they didn't hear the truth.

The majority of people I know echo David Bernard position, which is B. I have never heard in person or in book authors of position A by nobody in Apostolic circles. I have heard of the position C basically here in AFF.
I cannot judge anyone's salvation. That is all in God's hands. He will sort it all out when that time comes.

All I can do is teach the Word of God as I understand it. I know that Acts 2:38 lays out the only Plan of Salvation; I know one must repent, be baptized in the name of Jesus, and speak in tongues as evidence of the Holy Ghost. Thereafter, one must live a inward and outward lifestyle of holiness, without which no one shall see the Lord.
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I am Apostolic
I believe in One Lord, One Faith, One Baptism.
I believe in water baptism by immersion in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ for the remission of sins.
I believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost, evidenced by speaking in tongues as the Spirit gives utterance.
I believe in living a holiness lifestyle, inwardly and outwardly, without which no man shall see the Lord.
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  #185  
Old 05-17-2021, 10:22 AM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
In regards to "proper baptism" we need to account for this:

Acts 22:16 KJV
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Who does the "calling" here?
Paul called the name of the Lord but it is apparent Ananias did as well at Paul's baptism Acts 9:19.
It take the faith of the convert and the invocation of the name of Jesus by the baptizer.
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  #186  
Old 05-17-2021, 03:25 PM
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
Paul called the name of the Lord but it is apparent Ananias did as well at Paul's baptism Acts 9:19.
It take the faith of the convert and the invocation of the name of Jesus by the baptizer.
Acts 9:17-19 KJV
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. [18] And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. [19] And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

I'm not seeing any mention of Ananias calling on the name of the Lord over Paul at his baptism in that passage. Can you elaborate? I want to get into the issue of the two respective duties of baptizer and baptizee.
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  #187  
Old 05-17-2021, 05:21 PM
coksiw coksiw is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

In the book of Acts, what I see is that "in the name of Jesus" in the context of doing something was indeed mentioned by the one doing the work, because it means to act in behalf of, with the authority of, and the one affected by or receiving the work needed to know the authority being used.

Acts 3:6 (NKJV) 6 Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.”

Acts 16:18 (NKJV) 18 And this she did for many days.
But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.”
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  #188  
Old 05-19-2021, 04:07 PM
Apostolic1ness Apostolic1ness is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Acts 9:17-19 KJV
And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost. [18] And immediately there fell from his eyes as it had been scales: and he received sight forthwith, and arose, and was baptized. [19] And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.

I'm not seeing any mention of Ananias calling on the name of the Lord over Paul at his baptism in that passage. Can you elaborate? I want to get into the issue of the two respective duties of baptizer and baptizee.
As a Christian Ananias (if he indeed baptized Paul) would have invoked the name of Jesus over Paul without question. That specific scripture text would not need to identify it.

Maybe it's just me, but the "duties" of both parties is simple. Some may over complicate.

Baptizer: must be a believer
Baptizee: must repent of sins and believe Jesus will wash away their sins through baptism.
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  #189  
Old 05-20-2021, 12:30 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness View Post
As a Christian Ananias (if he indeed baptized Paul) would have invoked the name of Jesus over Paul without question. That specific scripture text would not need to identify it.
But that's assuming things not stated in the passage. We need to identify the Scriptures that spell out what the baptizer is supposed to do, amen?

Quote:
Maybe it's just me, but the "duties" of both parties is simple. Some may over complicate.

Baptizer: must be a believer
Baptizee: must repent of sins and believe Jesus will wash away their sins through baptism.
For me it's not about complexity, but about having solid Scriptural support and authority for our faith and practice.
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  #190  
Old 05-20-2021, 12:38 AM
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Re: More over-reacting to the "Light Doctrine"

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Originally Posted by coksiw View Post
In the book of Acts, what I see is that "in the name of Jesus" in the context of doing something was indeed mentioned by the one doing the work, because it means to act in behalf of, with the authority of, and the one affected by or receiving the work needed to know the authority being used.

Acts 3:6 (NKJV) 6 Then Peter said, “Silver and gold I do not have, but what I do have I give you: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, rise up and walk.”
In this passage Peter issued a command for a person to do something "in the name of Jesus Christ". Grammatically it is not saying Peter did something in the Name, rather that he told somebody else to do something in the Name.

Quote:
Acts 16:18 (NKJV) 18 And this she did for many days.
But Paul, greatly annoyed, turned and said to the spirit, “I command you in the name of Jesus Christ to come out of her.”
Same thing here except the command is given to a spirit.

These are identical to a preacher telling someone "I command you to get baptised in Jesus' name" or "In Jesus name I instruct you to get baptised." It is not specifically identifying "what the baptizer says when he baptises someone", only identifying either into what name the person is to be baptised or by what authority the preacher demands a person submit to baptism.
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