For those who think Jesus is not a man any longer.

[mfblume]

I spoke with Nicodemus about this issue in a thread on the fellowship section, where I really did not want to debate this issue there. But he kindly ceased, but I would like to discuss it here.

Here is the last dialogue we had there:

I asked why oneness cannot accept the thought that Jesus still exists as a man in heaven at this point.And here was his answer:

Because the physical man had a purpose and the purpose was completed!

What has that got to do with thinking that the existence of a man now as Son of God makes one depart from oneness when you believe that oneness included the picture of Jesus as a man at the same time He was God when there was what you believe a purpose for it? Just because you think there is no man now since his purpose was done, does not mean that IT IS NOT ONENESS to believe there is a purpose now and that the man still exists.

Oneness is about the STATE and NATURE of Jesus in relation to humanity and deity.

Since you believe that Jesus as a man was also God at the same time, and He was so before the cross, and you say that that correctly represents ONENESS, then the same picture with both Jesus as man and God today is just as oneness. Oneness is not about PURPOSE. PURPOSE is another topic. Oneness is about an explanation of what is going on with JESUS as a man and Deity. Is Jesus the same GOD that fills the universe while at the same time Jesus was a man? YES! That is oneness! And that holds true whether the man is in heaven NOW or was on earth THEN.

Oneness is about the nature of Jesus being GOD AND MAN at the same time. It matters not WHEN. It is just as much oneness to say that Jesus is STILL God and Man at the same time as much as it was to say He was so before the cross.

The Bible says,
John 19:30 KJVS
[30] When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost.

Finished- meaning he brought to a close.

Yes that was stated by Jesus on the cross, but Jesus did not say WHAT was finished, though. I claim that the need for all that would fulfil the old covenant and the question of sin was FINISHED. The WORK was finished. That work is focused on in Hebrews 10 as being FINISHED which caused the SON TO SIT DOWN IN HEAVEN. It was AFTER Jesus ascended into HEAVEN that He was told to SIT DOWN.

Do you not believe that Psalm 110:1 was fulfilled AFTER Jesus ascended into heaven? THAT is the MAIN ISSUE of this entire subject.

Matthew 28:18 KJVS
[18] And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

A MAN GIVEN ALL POWER. Amen! God is NOT GIVEN power. God HAS power. So, Jesus was speaking as a MAN while he was also God at the same time.

So why would He as a MAN be "given" all power only to no longer exist as a man any more? Kind of a waste of time.

Ive said this with others, the physical body of Jesus was NOT God.

I agree!

The SPIRIT that indwelled that sacrifice was God. The Physical man is not another deity, nor is it the from of God in the spirit realm.

I am not saying the physical man is deity or is from the Spirit realm. The PHYSICAL MAN did not come into existence until the incarnation. And yet HE ascended into heaven and was told to sit down while HIS DEITY would put his enemies beneath his feet.

So, once again, do you believe that Psalm 110:1 was fulfilled AFTER the ascension, and who do you believe the LORD is who spoke to David's Lord in that post-ascension dialogue?

The issue is that ONENESS is the understanding that Jesus is both God and Man at the same time. He's not a second person of a trinity with a third person involved.

The situation of Jesus being on earth as a man and is thought to be God at the same time, and was eternally God while he was not eternally man, constitutes ONENESS.

If that same situation exists NOW, except that the LOCATION of JESUS as a MAN is now in heaven as opposed to earth, while at the same time is the one eternal God who is omnipresent, then THAT IS STILL ONENESS.

How can it no longer be ONENESS if only the LOCATION of the MAN who is Jesus has changed, while Jesus is also God? How does LOCATION of the man make a difference in ONENESS when it's the same scenario of Jesus as both man and God?

If one wants to believe Jesus is no longer MAN as well as God (which is wrong), that is NO MORE ONENESS than believing He is still existing as both Man and God.
__________________

[Michael The Disciple]

Very important truth. Jesus is STILL a man while being the God of the universe.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Very important truth. Jesus is STILL a man while being the God of the universe.

Amen and amen! It fulfils the will of God for A MAN to be given dominion over the earth and to subdue it. Satan hated that idea and still hates it. That's why he refused to call Jesus SON OF MAN.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am not saying the physical man is deity or is from the Spirit realm. The PHYSICAL MAN did not come into existence until the incarnation.

I think this type of terminology is imprecise and may be problematic. Jesus said He came down from heaven. Now, we know this does not mean a divine person OTHER than the One God came down from heaven, nor does it even mean God Himself came DOWN from heaven (since God is omnipresent how does He "come or go" anywhere?). BUT it does mean SOMETHING otherwise Jesus wouldn't have said it.

Jesus coming down from heaven, or "proceeding from the Father", means this Man has a direct Divine origin. He was conceived in the womb of Mary by a creative miracle of God. In that sense, He came forth from the Father. Moreover, He was SENT by God, that is, the Man has a Divine Purpose and mission. In these senses I can certainly understand that Jesus Christ, the Man, "is from the Spirit realm".

As for the phrase "the physical man is deity" I think He is. Thomas saw a man, touched Him, and proclaimed "My Lord AND MY GOD." The Man is physical (of course) and the Man is God. He is God manifested in flesh, He is the Word of Life made flesh. So to say "the physical man is NOT God" doesn't actually make sense to me.

Now, to say His actual skin, muscle, bone, etc are not made of Divine Essence or something, of course that is true. He was made of a woman, son of David according to the flesh. His physical human nature and all its characteristics are not composed out of Divine nature. His humanity is our humanity, dust of the earth (although resurrected, and transformed, immortal). But I'm not sure ANYBODY believes otherwise, except certain gnostics, Mennonites, and Divine Flesh pentecostals.

I think we need to be as specific as possible in these kinds of discussions to avoid misunderstandings.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

I think this type of terminology is imprecise and may be problematic. Jesus said He came down from heaven. Now, we know this does not mean a divine person OTHER than the One God came down from heaven, nor does it even mean God Himself came DOWN from heaven (since God is omnipresent how does He "come or go" anywhere?). BUT it does mean SOMETHING otherwise Jesus wouldn't have said it.

Jesus coming down from heaven, or "proceeding from the Father", means this Man has a direct Divine origin. He was conceived in the womb of Mary by a creative miracle of God. In that sense, He came forth from the Father. Moreover, He was SENT by God, that is, the Man has a Divine Purpose and mission. In these senses I can certainly understand that Jesus Christ, the Man, "is from the Spirit realm".

As for the phrase "the physical man is deity" I think He is. Thomas saw a man, touched Him, and proclaimed "My Lord AND MY GOD." The Man is physical (of course) and the Man is God. He is God manifested in flesh, He is the Word of Life made flesh. So to say "the physical man is NOT God" doesn't actually make sense to me.

Now, to say His actual skin, muscle, bone, etc are not made of Divine Essence or something, of course that is true. He was made of a woman, son of David according to the flesh. His physical human nature and all its characteristics are not composed out of Divine nature. His humanity is our humanity, dust of the earth (although resurrected, and transformed, immortal). But I'm not sure ANYBODY believes otherwise, except certain gnostics, Mennonites, and Divine Flesh pentecostals.

I think we need to be as specific as possible in these kinds of discussions to avoid misunderstandings.

I agree with all that you said, seeing that it is a case of termonology.

When I say the physical man is not God I mean humanity is all that this body and soul is and was. I believe Jesus was literal when he told the rich young rule to not call him good because no man is good, only God. Thomas touched the body, but the body was purely human and not deity since the deity is eternal and the body was not.

I think this also touches on an issue I have been concerned with for many oneness people for years, even decades. They distance Jesus' humanity from us and do not see that He relied on the direction and power of the Father as much as we need to. Many oneness people deny that. Jesus as a man genuinely had to learn and grow in wisdom, and learn obedience. He did precisely the things we can and should do when dealing with satan, and did not treat the devil as only God could handle him, and us be unable to in that same manner.

Thomas knew God was in that human being, just as He is now in us. But the difference between us and Jesus is that his very person was God, and I do use that term person because the Bible did, while obviously standing o the greek meaning of the term and not what person have been evolved into apart form that.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree with all that you said, seeing that it is a case of termonology.

When I say the physical man is not God I mean humanity is all that this body and soul is and was. I believe Jesus was literal when he told the rich young rule to not call him good because no man is good, only God. Thomas touched the body, but the body was purely human and not deity since the deity is eternal and the body was not.

I think this also touches on an issue I have been concerned with for many oneness people for years, even decades. They distance Jesus' humanity from us and do not see that He relied on the direction and power of the Father as much as we need to. Many oneness people deny that. Jesus as a man genuinely had to learn and grow in wisdom, and learn obedience. He did precisely the things we can and should do when dealing with satan, and did not treat the devil as only God could handle him, and us be unable to in that same manner.

Thomas knew God was in that human being, just as He is now in us. But the difference between us and Jesus is that his very person was God, and I do use that term person because the Bible did, while obviously standing o the greek meaning of the term and not what person have been evolved into apart form that.

[mfblume]

TJJJ, Nicodemus68?

Care to discuss this in depth?

[mfblume]

I guess it's hard to challenge the Word of God, itself, when it's presented.

The fact is that ONENESS is the understanding that God is ONE even though He is manifest in flesh at the same time that He the heavens cannot contain HIm as per his deity. And whether that is between the incarnation and the ascension, or NOW, A manifestation in flesh by the one God of the universe is the basic and core understanding of ONENESS.

It matters not if someone things the MAN is not existing any more in Heaven. Oneness is not about WHEN He is manifest in flesh or not. It is about the fact that HE MANFESTES IN FLESH at the same time He remains omnipresent Deity!

Wherever this idea came from that Jesus is not a man any more is simply absurd. And it shows lack of understanding Oneness correctly. Just look at lack of dialogue over it.

[Nicodemus1968]

Originally Posted by mfblume

TJJJ, Nicodemus68?

Care to discuss this in depth?

Mike,
I’m going to happen to agree with TJJJ about this conversation. Like in the message I wrote you, these conversations can get to the point where our spirit can be affected. It’s very obvious Easias, and yourself do not believe what TJJJ and myself believe as far as the body of Christ is concerned.

In my opinion this conversation is going to cause more personal hard feelings rather than Godly edifying.

[Esaias]

The silence is deafening.