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  #161  
Old 11-18-2017, 11:54 PM
thephnxman thephnxman is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

His NAME is Jesus!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sean View Post
There are countless millions of future " trib saints" alive today. These are sincere believers in Jesus
that are not qualified to be caught away. Only the First century bride types willbe caught away.
The various passages in Rev. Find saints, even 144,000 Jews that are considered saints by God.
We definitely cannot be lumped in with everyone else. Especially when the HolyGhost, restraining force
is taken out of the way.
You make some interesting comments.

Apparently you believe in two resurrections; you also count yourself among the
ones who "cannot be lumped together". But let me ask you this question:
Why would the Holy Spirit (restraining force) be taken out of the way?

Brother Villa
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  #162  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:32 AM
Originalist Originalist is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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God's wrath becomes man's wrath? Clever, but wrong.
Tribulation and wrath are two different things. Post-trib does not teach that saints experience the wrath of God after the Tribulation.
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  #163  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:55 AM
Esaias's Avatar
Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

1 Thessalonians 5:9 (9) For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
God has not appointed us to wrath. Instead, as a solution or contrast to being appointed to wrath, God has appointed us to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.

Notice, there is nothing in this scripture about the second coming, no rapture, no resurrection mentioned, no time table, none of that. Furthermore, look at the context of the chapter:

Verse 1 says the brethren have no need for Paul to write them of the "times and the seasons". Why not? Because they knew that the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night. Does this mean imminence? That it could happen anytime? No, it just means, as Paul explains in verses 3-7, that it comes at a time when the world does not expect.

He explains that we are not in darkness, that the day should overtake us as a thief in the night. This is CLEARLY stating the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night TO THE LOST, not to the saints. The saints are not in darkness, they are awake, they are sober, dressed in the armour of righteousness. And therefore, the day of the Lord does not come upon them as a thief in the night. It does not catch them unprepared. Why? Because the saints are always prepared to meet the Lord!
1 Thessalonians 5:10 (10) Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
Whether we live or die is irrelevant. God is not concerned with making sure we don't die. Rather, God is concerned with making sure that we have eternal life. So whether we live, or die, no matter WHAT happens in this life, we find ourselves with Him to live forever. This again proves that the "not appointed unto wrath" has nothing to do with being removed from the earth to avoid the "horrors of the tribulation".

God hasn't appointed any saint unto wrath. And we have already been delivered from the wrath to come:
1 Thessalonians 1:10 (10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.
We've already been delivered or saved from the coming wrath. How? By being raptured? No, by being placed into Christ. Pre trib rapture heresy denies we have already been delivered from the coming wrath.
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  #164  
Old 11-19-2017, 07:56 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

EVERY SINGLE "PROOF TEXT" the rapturists use in support of their claim can be explained within a post trib rapture understanding.

But there are numerous proof texts used which prove a "post trib" resurrection of the saints that CANNOT BE HARMONIZED WITH THE PRE TRIB RAPTURE TEACHING.

Furthermore, there is NOT ONE SINGLE TEXT OF SCRIPTURE which actually states the pre trib doctrine. Just like the trinity doctrine, pre trib rapturism is based upon supposition, eisegesis, interpretation, opinion, and exegetical gymnastics. Whereas the truth is based upon the plain and simple declarations of the Scriptures where they speak on the very subject.
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  #165  
Old 11-19-2017, 08:52 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by thephnxman View Post
His NAME is Jesus!



You make some interesting comments.

Apparently you believe in two resurrections; you also count yourself among the
ones who "cannot be lumped together". But let me ask you this question:
Why would the Holy Spirit (restraining force) be taken out of the way?

Brother Villa

I believe in multiple resurrections, yes.

The Holy Ghost's removal would be done to allow the spirit of antichrist to finally find a host to emulate as "god".

This man will be a counterfeit "christ", preceding the Lord Jesus Christ.

This will allow the return of the true Christ to have maximum effect and an object lesson for mankind at this event.....



11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, King Of Kings, And Lord Of Lords.



This is what the world witnesses.....




19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.




There is timing to the appearing of the false christ, as you can see.....




And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:





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  #166  
Old 11-19-2017, 08:56 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
He explains that we are not in darkness, that the day should overtake us as a thief in the night. This is CLEARLY stating the day of the Lord comes as a thief in the night TO THE LOST, not to the saints. The saints are not in darkness, they are awake,



5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.

8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.

9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.

10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.

12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.

13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
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  #167  
Old 11-19-2017, 08:59 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Originalist View Post
Tribulation and wrath are two different things. Post-trib does not teach that saints experience the wrath of God after the Tribulation.
No, he butchered the context of the verse to say it meant "our wrath".....LOL


Go back and read he passage, you will see.
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  #168  
Old 11-19-2017, 09:06 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

This is brutal.....





5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.

2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.

7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.

8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath......,
Therefore it is my understanding and my theory that this verse should be correctly understood to say and or mean, "9 For God hath not appointed us to anger (to be angry) (hard to get along with) (contentious), but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,





LOL
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  #169  
Old 11-19-2017, 09:10 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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1 Thessalonians 1:10 (10) And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.


We've already been delivered or saved from the coming wrath. How? By being raptured? No, by being placed into Christ. Pre trib rapture heresy denies we have already been delivered from the coming wrath.



Right, a promise of this event....



Revelation 3:10King James Version (KJV)

10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.



What a promise indeed!
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  #170  
Old 11-19-2017, 09:16 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Now all Esaias must do is tell us how the Church will survive the wrath of God with the rest of humanity as billions die around us and our cities and communities are wiped out.(since he does not believe in a removal of the church).

One brother on AFF proposed a bubble or force field or something like that for us and our kids....what say you, Esaias?
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