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  #41  
Old 11-14-2017, 01:20 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

The rapture cult claims that there is no mention of the church on earth after Revelation ch 3, and therefore the church is in heaven after ch 3, and therefore the rapture must have taken place before ch 4 begins.

This is false.

First of all, it is false because - once again - there is NO ACTUAL TEXT STATING THE CHURCH IS RAPTURED BEFORE REVELATION CHAPTER 4 BEGINS. That is an assumption based upon a predetermined belief in the rapture doctrine. Just like trinitarian "proof texts" which are not proof texts at all, just INTERPRETATIONS which require a pre existing doctrine of trinitarianism. Nobody just reading the Bible would come away with a pre trib rapture belief. They must first hear the doctrine, THEN reinterpret the Bible to fit the doctrine.

Secondly, the church IS FOUND ON THE EARTH AFTER CHAPTER 3!

Ch 4 is the four living creatures and the 24 elders seated on thrones around the throne.

Ch 5 is the four living creatures, the 24 elders, and an innumerable host of angels, and the Lamb, in the throne room.

Ch 6 has saints who were martyred calling to be avenged. It is stated they had to rest a while longer until their FELLOWSERVANTS should be killed like they were. THIS IS PROOF THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 6.

Ch 7 has the angels about to hurt the earth, but are told to wait until the servants of God had been sealed. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 7.

Ch 7 also has an innumerable company of saints around the throne out of every nation. Who are they? According to verse 14 they are those which "came out of great tribulation." The Greek is literally "which came out of the great tribulation." In fact, the Greek is actually MORE emphatic than any English translation could be - "they which came out of the tribulation the great." THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH DURING THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

Ch 8 has the angel offering the incense in heaven, "with the prayers of all the saints". Saints in heaven have no need to pray, they would be in the very literal presence of God. Therefore, THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 8.

Ch 9 has the locust army from the bottomless pit being allowed to hurt ONLY those who do not have the seal of God. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS UPON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 9.

Ch 12 states explicitly that the dragon persecutes - in the earth - those who keep the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 12.

Ch 13 describes the Beast arising from the sea and making war with the saints and persecuting them. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS UPON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 13.

Ch 14 declares "Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth." THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTER 14.

Ch 17 describes the great whore, Babylon, and chapter 18 announces her impending destruction at the hands of the Beast's horns, and a call is given to God's people to come out of Babylon to escape the judgements that are about to come upon her. THIS PROVES THERE ARE SAINTS ON THE EARTH IN CHAPTERS 17-18.

Ch 20 describes the first resurrection, which includes those who had gotten the victory over the Beast and who had rejected his mark. THIS PROVES THERE WERE SAINTS ON THE EARTH DURING THE REIGN OF THE BEAST POWER.

So much for pre trib nonsense.
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  #42  
Old 11-14-2017, 01:45 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.





Brethren, if you think the devil is taking a wrecking ball to your life now, wait til God sicks the devil on you, as an inhabitant of the earth during the great tribulation.

You aint seen nothin yet.(post trib thinking).
Funny how heretical pushers of false doctrines always either misquote the Scripture, or LEAVE OFF THE IMPORTANT PARTS. Sean here thinks it's crazy to think that "God will sic the devil on the saints "as an inhabitant of the earth". But what sayeth the Scripture?>
Revelation 12:12-17 (12) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (13) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. (16) And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. (17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Here, the dragon is come down to the earth, and persecutes the people of God. Whatever this Scripture means, it definitely means pre trib is heretical false doctrine gobbledygoop.
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  #43  
Old 11-14-2017, 02:20 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

If you notice, the rapture cult is actually a FEAR BASED MIND CONTROL CULT, that induces people to SIN AGAINST CHRIST and DENY THE FAITH.

I will prove it.

Look at what has been presented as one of the chief arguments in favor of rapturism: FEAR OF WHAT'S COMING. Rapturism does not promote the fear OF GOD, but rather the fear of man, the fear of death, the fear of "what's coming", the fear of suffering, and the fear of persecution.

in Luke 12:4-5 Jesus warns us not to fear men, but to fear God. Rapture cultists seek to instill in you the fear of men, the "Antichrist", and the horrible persecutors who will be running rampant during the "great tribulation." Rapturism seeks to get you to disobey Jesus and fear men.

Hebrews 2:15 says our Lord came to deliver us who were captive to the devil because of the fear of death. Rapturism wants you to fear dying a horrible death, and thus deny the Saving Grace of Jesus Christ.

Luke 21:6 describes men's hearts failing them for fear because of what they EXPECT to come upon the earth. But who are the fearful ones? The unregenerate sinners! Hebrews 10:26-27 shows that it is the SINNERS who fear coming judgments, not sanctified believers. Pre trib rapturism wants you to have no genuine faith, but to be afraid like sinners (see Isaiah 33:14).

2 Timothy 2:12 says if we suffer with Him we shall reign with Him. Rapture cultists want you to shrink from suffering, to ROB YOU OF THE OPPORTUNITY TO REIGN WITH CHRIST. We have been CALLED TO SUFFER according to 1 Peter 2:20-21, and rapturism is a religion that offers a different "call", a call to escape suffering. It is not of God.

2 Timothy 3:12 declares that ALL who will live godly in Christ SHALL BE PERSECUTED. It is something ALL Christians are to expect. But rapturism offers a Christianity that will save you FROM PERSECUTION! It's message is the EXACT OPPOSITE of original apostolic Christianity.

Jesus said we must take up our cross and die to self. We must lose our lives for His sake. But if we try to save our life, we WILL LOSE IT. Rapturism presents a scary, frightening view of the future, focusing on the persecution (if the saints are gone, who's being persecuted???) and tribulation, suffering and death. Then once you are good and scared, they offer the " Rapture™" as your escape hatch, your getaway car. They lead your mind away from the proper Biblical attitude, and lead you into a self-centered self-seeking "save my hide" mentality. They want you to DENY THE CROSS. Why does pre trib rapture doctrine result in an effectual DENIAL OF THE CROSS? Because it is OF SATAN.

This is classic fear-based mind control cultic behavior. Scare you as much as possible, but not a fear of GOD! No, a fear of the future, death, suffering, persecution. A fear of everything GOD TOLD YOU NOT TO FEAR.

Who would come up with such a Christ-denying, cross insulting, faith killing religion? THE DEVIL, that's who.

"Believe pre trib rapture because the alternative is too scary for you to think about." Straight out of the Jehovah's (False)Witnesses playbook.
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  #44  
Old 11-14-2017, 03:37 AM
TGBTG TGBTG is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Funny how heretical pushers of false doctrines always either misquote the Scripture, or LEAVE OFF THE IMPORTANT PARTS. Sean here thinks it's crazy to think that "God will sic the devil on the saints "as an inhabitant of the earth". But what sayeth the Scripture?>
Revelation 12:12-17 (12) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (13) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. (16) And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. (17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Here, the dragon is come down to the earth, and persecutes the people of God. Whatever this Scripture means, it definitely means pre trib is heretical false doctrine gobbledygoop.
Dude, relax, you seem fired up..lol

People read the same scriptures and come up with different conclusions. We all have biases, and those biases affect our understanding of scripture whether we like it or not.

Rev 12 which you quoted to prove that the saints are on earth for the tribulation is the same scripture pre-tribs (that I know) use to validate their doctrine.

They see in Rev 12:

1. Verses 1-5: the "catching up of the first fruits/saints" (rapture, wise virgins of Matt 25)

2. Verses 6-16: antichrist waging war against the nation of Israel (dispensationalism, if you get what I mean)

3. Verse 17: the tribulation saints - lukewarm christians that did not get get taken in the rapture (foolish virgins of Matt 25) and people that believe the gospel during the rapture

So in a nutshell, pre-tribs, again, that I know see the saints as divided into categories.

YOUR UNDERSTANDING of pre-trib leads you to believe the doctrine is teaching people to fear satan and deny the faith.

On the other hand, THEIR UNDERSTANDING of pre-trib leads them to believe they must live a life of holiness and fear of God, so they can make rapture and not be left behind (Ref: Matt 25 foolish & wise virgins)

As far as denying the faith, there are a lot of pre-trib believers who have gone on the missionary field, were persecuted for their faith and gave up their lives for their faith, so I wouldn't be so quick to label ALL pre-trib believers as fearing persecution

Personally, I see every eschalotology view point has holes in it.
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Last edited by TGBTG; 11-14-2017 at 03:40 AM.
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  #45  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:01 AM
JoeBandy JoeBandy is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by TGBTG View Post
Dude, relax, you seem fired up..lol

People read the same scriptures and come up with different conclusions. We all have biases, and those biases affect our understanding of scripture whether we like it or not.

Rev 12 which you quoted to prove that the saints are on earth for the tribulation is the same scripture pre-tribs (that I know) use to validate their doctrine.

They see in Rev 12:

1. Verses 1-5: the "catching up of the first fruits/saints" (rapture, wise virgins of Matt 25)

2. Verses 6-16: antichrist waging war against the nation of Israel (dispensationalism, if you get what I mean)

3. Verse 17: the tribulation saints - lukewarm christians that did not get get taken in the rapture (foolish virgins of Matt 25) and people that believe the gospel during the rapture

So in a nutshell, pre-tribs, again, that I know see the saints as divided into categories.

YOUR UNDERSTANDING of pre-trib leads you to believe the doctrine is teaching people to fear satan and deny the faith.

On the other hand, THEIR UNDERSTANDING of pre-trib leads them to believe they must live a life of holiness and fear of God, so they can make rapture and not be left behind (Ref: Matt 25 foolish & wise virgins)

As far as denying the faith, there are a lot of pre-trib believers who have gone on the missionary field, were persecuted for their faith and gave up their lives for their faith, so I wouldn't be so quick to label ALL pre-trib believers as fearing persecution

Personally, I see every eschalotology view point has holes in it.
good post!
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  #46  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:23 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is online now
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

And again Paul never warns us against those who are saying the day of Christ cant happen until there is a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed. Rather just the opposite.

He calls anyone teaching that the day of Christ can come before the falling away and the man of sin is revealed a false deceiver. Odd people cant read that and understand what Paul is saying.
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  #47  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:25 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is online now
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Quote:
Personally, I see every eschalotology view point has holes in it.
So no one has the truth? How do you answer those who say the same thing about the Godhead? Is there any foundation truth available for us?
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  #48  
Old 11-14-2017, 07:43 AM
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Amanah Amanah is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
As is usually the case with heresies, the proponents of said heresies never can point to a passage which directly teaches what they teach. No pre trib rapture proponent can point to a passage which clearly and unequivocally declares that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him will occur BEFORE the apostasy, the revealing of the man of sin, and his destruction. Not one passage.

Instead, they kerfuffle and herharrumfle from this to that to that other thing off yonder, always dancing around the actual plain statements of scripture.

Pre trib is heretical, unbiblical, non apostolic nonsense. Invented in the 1830s by a (false) prophetess named Margaret MacDonald, picked up by the Brethren movement who gave us both heresies of dispensationalism and pre trib rapturism, and popularised by Cyrus Scofield, a rascal's rascal and an undeniably fraudulent huckster.
please provide more information on the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin.
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  #49  
Old 11-14-2017, 08:16 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is online now
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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please provide more information on the apostasy and revealing of the man of sin.
Falling away:

Matt 24:9-14

9Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. 10And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. 11And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. 12And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. 13But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. 14And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

Man of sin revealed.

Matt 24:15-21

15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

The abomination spoken of by Daniel.

Daniel 11:36-37

36And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. 37Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all.

The second coming aka the rapture.

Matt 24:29-31

29Immediately after the tribulation of those days
shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In a nutshell!
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  #50  
Old 11-14-2017, 08:34 AM
Sean Sean is offline
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
Funny how heretical pushers of false doctrines always either misquote the Scripture, or LEAVE OFF THE IMPORTANT PARTS. Sean here thinks it's crazy to think that "God will sic the devil on the saints "as an inhabitant of the earth". But what sayeth the Scripture?>
Revelation 12:12-17 (12) Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. (13) And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. (14) And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. (15) And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. (16) And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. (17) And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
Here, the dragon is come down to the earth, and persecutes the people of God. Whatever this Scripture means, it definitely means pre trib is heretical false doctrine gobbledygoop.
Those are the Jews Esaias.
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