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  #81  
Old 11-14-2017, 09:53 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post
As is usually the case with heresies, the proponents of said heresies never can point to a passage which directly teaches what they teach. No pre trib rapture proponent can point to a passage which clearly and unequivocally declares that the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him will occur BEFORE the apostasy, the revealing of the man of sin, and his destruction. Not one passage.

Instead, they kerfuffle and herharrumfle from this to that to that other thing off yonder, always dancing around the actual plain statements of scripture.

Pre trib is heretical, unbiblical, non apostolic nonsense. Invented in the 1830s by a (false) prophetess named Margaret MacDonald, picked up by the Brethren movement who gave us both heresies of dispensationalism and pre trib rapturism, and popularised by Cyrus Scofield, a rascal's rascal and an undeniably fraudulent huckster.
You really have a great grasp on biblical doctrine.

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  #82  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:43 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by Sean View Post
Duh!

The rapture precedes the 2nd coming.

The rapture is not the 2nd coming.

Get it right.
The Lord comes and we are gathered to Him. Is that not "the rapture"? Or is that the 2nd Coming?

If the rapture isn't our gathering to the Lord, then where will we be raptured to? A holding cell?

Does the Lord come from heaven to get us in the rapture? Wouldn't that be the Second Coming? If its not the Second Coming is it the 5 tenths coming? If He returns to gather us to be with Him, then wouldn't your post-rapture "Second Coming" actually be the Third Coming?

Duh. YOU get it right.

The Lord's Coming AND our gathering to Him SHALL NOT HAPPEN UNTIL AFTER THE MAN OF SIN IS REVEALED AND DOES HIS THING. So said Paul.
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  #83  
Old 11-14-2017, 10:44 PM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

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Originally Posted by FlamingZword View Post
You really have a great grasp on biblical doctrine.

I just read my Bible and go with what it says.
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  #84  
Old 11-15-2017, 02:54 AM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Okay, now that it has been clearly established that the pre trib rapture doctrine is false doctrine, let's examine the question of "is it qualified to be called 'heresy', and what should we do about it?"

First, what is "heresy"?
G139 - heresy
αἵρεσις, εως, ἡ,
I
1. taking, esp. of a town, Hdt. 4.1, etc.; ἡ βασιλέος αἵ. the taking by the king, Id. 9.3; ἐλπίζων ταχίστην -σιν ἔσεσθαι Th. 2.75; αἵ. δυνάμεως acquisition of power, Pl. Grg. 513a: — generally, taking, receiving, ἐπιγενημάτων PTeb. 27.66 (ii B. C.). (αἱρέομαι) choice, αἵρεσίν τ' ἐμοὶ δίδου A. Pr. 779; τῶνδε.. αἵρεσιν παρδίδωμι Pi. N. 10.82; foll. by relat., αἵ. διδόναι ὁκοτέρην.., εἰ.., etc., Hdt. 1.11, cf. D. 22.19; αἵ. προτιθέναι, προβάλλειν, Pl. Tht. 196c, Sph. 245b; εἰ νέμοι τις αἵρεσιν S. Aj. 265; αἵρεσιν λαβεῖν D. 36.11; ποιεῖσθαι Isoc. 7.19; αἵ. γίγνεταί τινι Th. 2.61; οὐκ ἔχει αἵρεσιν it admits no choice, Plu. 2.708b.
2. choice, election of magistrates, Th. 8.89, cf. Arist. Pol. 1266a26, al.; αἱρέσει, opp. κλήρῳ, 1300a19, etc.
3. inclination, choice, πρός τινα Philipp. ap. D. 18.166, Plb. 2.61.9, etc., cf. IG 2.591b; opp. φυγή, Epicur. Ephesians 3 p.62U.; περὶ αἱρέσεων καὶ φυγῶν, title of treatise by Epicurus.
II
1. purpose, course of action or thought, like προαίρεσις, Pl. Phdr. 256c; ἡ αἵ. τῆς πρεσβείας Aeschin. 2.11; αἵ. Ἐλληνική the study of Greek literature, Plb. 39.1.3: — conduct, PTeb. 28.10 (ii B. C.).
2. system of philosophic principles, or those who profess such principles, sect, school, Plb. 5.93.8, D.S. 2.29, Polystr. p.20 W., D.H. Amm. 1.7, Comp. 2,al., cf. Cic. Fam. 15.16.3; κατὰ τῶν αἱ., title of treatise by Antipater of Tarsus; περὶ αἱρέσεων, title of Menippean satire by Varro, cf. Fr. 164; αἵρεσις πρὸς Γοργιππίδην, title of work by Chrysippus, D.L. 7.191; esp. religious party or sect, of the Essenes, J. BJ 2.8.1; the Sadducees and Pharisees, Act_5:17, Act_15:5, Act_26:5; the Christians, ib. 24.5, 14, 28.22, generally, faction, party, App. BC 5.2.
3. corps of epheboi, OGI 176 (Egypt).
4. Astrol., 'condition', Ptol. Tetr. 21; ἡ ἡμερινὴ αἵ. Vett. Val. 1.13.
III
1. proposed condition, proposal, D.H. 3.10.
2. commission, ἡ ἐπὶ τοὺς νέους αἵ. Pl. Ax. 367a; embassy, mission, IG 4.937 (Epid.).
3. freewill offering, opp. vow, LXX Lev_22:18,al.
4. bid at auction, τὴν ἀμείνονα αἵ. διδόντι παραδοθῆναι POxy. 716.22 (ii A. D.), cf. 1630.8 (iii A. D.).
So, the word itself has a variety of meanings, but as used in theology the term essentially means a body of teachings, a sect, a faction, or party. The reason it refers to a sect, faction, or party is because a sect, faction, or party is characterised by it's distinctive body of beliefs/teachings. Thus, the sect of the Pharisees was a distinct sect from other Jewish groups because of the distinctive body of Pharisee beliefs/teachings. From this we can conclude the term essentially means a distinct teaching, belief, etc that creates a distinction.
1 Corinthians 11:16-19 (16) But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God. (17) Now in this that I declare unto you I praise you not, that ye come together not for the better, but for the worse. (18) For first of all, when ye come together in the church, I hear that there be divisions among you; and I partly believe it. (19) For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.
Paul concludes a teaching on headcovering by noting that there is a unified doctrine and practice amongst the churches of God. He then states that there are divisions and heresies amongst the Corinthians, and says the divisions are the result of the heresies. From what we know of the definition of heresy, we can see how this confirms that definition: There were groups in the church who held to particular beliefs, teachings, practices, that distinguished them from the other groups. The distinct teachings/beliefs creates a "group" or clique within the church, making them distinct or different from the rest of the church because the group holds to a different doctrine. If there are multiple heresies, it would be expected to create multiple divisions, multiple sects, parties, factions etc.

In this sense, pre trib rapture is undeniably a heresy - it is a distinctive belief that creates a division, between those who are pre trib and those who are not pre trib.
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  #85  
Old 11-15-2017, 03:05 AM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

(cont.)

Now, heresy is not, IN ITSELF, a negative thing. The apostolic church in the first century was a heresy, that is a sect, group, party, or faction holding to a distinctive body of beliefs and practices. It was distinct from the Pharisees, Sadducees, disciples of John, Essenes, etc. Christianity was in fact one "sect of Judaism" among several.

The problem though is the Bible, while sometimes using the term "heresy" in a neutral sense (meaning simply a distinctive sect or party or group or system of belief), it also uses the term in a negative sense:
Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, (21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
As in the verse from 1 Corinthians referenced in the previous post, here heresies are not approved, but are condemned. They are a negative, not a neutral, thing. So what makes a heresy bad?

Well, just thinking about it, it should appear obvious: The apostles delivered a body of faith and practice, a set of doctrine or beliefs, a system of "philosophy" if you will. If someone were to begin to innovate and create or alter beliefs so as to have doctrines or practices DISTINCT from, that is to say, DIFFERENT FROM, what the apostles believed and practiced, then that would be a HERESY. Furthermore, it would be EVIL.

The apostles were charged with teaching all the doctrine of Christ. Nobody else was. Any doctrine that is "distinct" from the apostles' doctrine or teaching is not of Christ, not of God, and leads AWAY from Christ. So any doctrine that is DISTINCT or "different" from that which is taught in the Bible, is an EVIL heresy. Such non apostolic doctrines, teachings, practices, etc create division. Christians who begin to follow those heresies are DIVIDED FROM the original apostolic faith, the original apostolic practice, the original apostolic fellowship.

We have already seen that the pre trib doctrine is not only a heresy in itself, as a distinct teaching, that creates a division (the pre tribbers), but we have also seen that it is CONTRARY to what the apostles taught. That makes it a BAD heresy, not a NEUTRAL heresy.

The next question is "Is it DAMNABLE?"
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  #86  
Old 11-15-2017, 03:16 AM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

(continued)

We already read the verse in Galatians which declared that "heresies" are works of the flesh and that those who engage in such things will NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. This means heretics (those who hold to heresies) will NOT BE SAVED.

If you hold to doctrines that are CONTRARY to the doctrines taught by the Bible, that cause you to become part of some "ism" or some sect(ion) of the church that is contrary to the body of teachings delivered by the apostles, you are engaged in a work of the flesh and have joined yourself to a work of the flesh. And, you will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Here it is again:

Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, (20) Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, (21) Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Notice that word "seditions" right before "heresies". That word is dichostasiai, and means this:
G1370
δῐχο-στᾰσία, ἡ,
dissension, B. 10.67 (pl.), Hdt. 5.75, Eus.Mynd. 45, Plu. 2.20c; sedition, Sol. 4.38, Thgn. 78, LXX 1Ma_3:29.
Seditions are divisions or separations from or disagreements with. With what? Obviously the doctrines of the apostles! If a person disagrees with the teachings of the Bible, they are "dissenting" from the apostolic doctrine, they are part of a dissension. They are guilty of "sedition", which is essentially a rebellion against proper lawful authority. When a Christian accepts doctrines that are non apostolic and which cause them to be in disagreement with the teachings of the apostles, they are in rebellion against the lawful ordained authority. The apostles are commissioned to establish doctrine in the church. If you disagree with their teachings, you are in rebellion or sedition against their authority. And if you are in rebellion against the authority of the apostles in regards to doctrine, you are not only guilty of sedition, but of heresy. The two go hand in hand. And those who do such will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Ecumenicalism claims that heretics, those who teach doctrines other than and contrary to what the apostles taught, will inherit the kingdom of God. As you can see, ecumenicalism contradicts the NT. Which makes ecumenicalism a dissension from, a sedition against, NT apostolic doctrinal authority, which makes ecumenicalism itself a soul-damning heresy.
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  #87  
Old 11-15-2017, 03:27 AM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

(cont)

So what about pre trib rapture? We have seen that it fits the definition of a heresy, as a distinct doctrine or body of teachings, beliefs, etc. It is a division in the church (pre tribber vs non pre tribber). It is not taught by the apostles. It is the exact opposite of what the apostles taught. It explicitly denies what the apostles taught.

Therefore it is a work of the flesh and a soul damning heresy.

2 Peter 2:1-3 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. (2) And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. (3) And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
Damnable heresies are beliefs and systems of doctrine or teachings that are accursed and bring damnation. They are associated with "denying the Lord that bought" the heretic. In other words, heretics wind up in denial of the Lord Jesus. They have rejected His teachings, and thereby have rejected His authority to be their Teacher and Master. They were bought by the Lord, became Christians, and then denied Him, committing sedition (treason) against Him, divided themselves off from Him and all who follow Him, and have become distinct from Him, His teaching, His apostles, and His followers. They are thus "heretics".

They bring swift destruction upon themselves, not that they die suddenly. But rather, they QUICKLY cut themselves off from Christ by cutting themselves off from His Truth. Anyone not in the Light, walking in the Truth, is walking in darkness, is on the path of destruction. Heretics are not just brethren that don't know any better. They are in danger!

And notice, they bring SWIFT destruction upon themselves. It's a SHORT JOURNEY from accepting a false doctrine to being lost. It is not a long journey, as some suppose, as though it takes an awful lot of heresy for a heretic to wind up lost. According to the apostle, that destruction, that cutting off from Christ and His Body, comes QUICK.

I suspect there would be a lot less division and heresy in the Church if people realised how quickly one can go from 0 to lost when it comes to playing with false doctrines. I suspect people would take doctrine a bit more seriously. I suspect there'd be none of that lackadaisical attitude so prevalent nowadays in regards to doctrine. If you believed you need to believe right to be saved, that if you swallow false doctrine it would cost you your soul, you would spend more time in prayer and study before just accepting whatever teaching came your way...
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Last edited by Esaias; 11-15-2017 at 03:44 AM.
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  #88  
Old 11-15-2017, 03:38 AM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

So then, in conclusion, pre trib rapture doctrine is a damnable heresy and a sedition against Christ. It is a false doctrine that is 180 degrees contrary to clear, plain, Bible teaching. If persisted in, it will condemn the soul.

"But wait, it's just an interpretation! How can one's salvation be dependent on whether or not one is pre trib???"

The Bible is clear that heresies condemn the soul. And pre trib rapture doctrine is undeniably a heresy in every sense of the word, as proven on this thread multiple times over.

There are some things in Scripture where brethren can be different. For example, we are commanded to sing psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs to one another. In that we must be in agreement. But nothing is said about the particular melodies used, or what particular songs are to be used (only they must teach doctrine, not error). So we can differ in those areas where Scripture is silent.

In regards to prophecy, there are many things the Bible itself is silent on. An example from this thread is the identity of the man of sin. The Bible gives us identifying marks of the man of sin, but does not state "who or what is the fulfillment" of the prophecy concerning the man of sin. Therefore, we cannot be too overly dogmatic about interpretations of fulfillments.

But there are other things clearly stated in Scripture. Baptism saves us by the resurrection of Christ (1 Peter 3:21). Any doctrine that says "No, baptism doesn't save us" is heretical nonsense that Christians must reject. That Jesus Christ is God manifested in the flesh is another. There may be room for different opinions on how that was accomplished (as long as those opinions do not contradict other Scriptures), but one thing all saved believers must agree on is that Christ is God manifested in the flesh.

And as shown in the opening post of this thread, the coming of the Lord and our gathering together with Him DOES NOT OCCUR prior to the revealing of the man of sin and his activities. That gathering to the Lord at His coming takes place alongside the destruction of the man of sin, not "seven years prior" or whatever else pre trib rapturists want to claim. Pre trib rapturism flat out denies the words of the apostle.

If you intend to be saved, you need to come out of false doctrine.
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Last edited by Esaias; 11-15-2017 at 03:45 AM.
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  #89  
Old 11-15-2017, 04:05 AM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

Hahahahaha...this is too funny.

You can literally take your approach and apply it to anything..lol

Hey, full and partial preterists (Evangelist Benincasa & Mike Blume), stop arguing with the pre-tribber (Sean), you guys are all damned anyway.

Esaias,
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  #90  
Old 11-15-2017, 04:07 AM
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Re: Pre trib rapture teaching is heresy

This is good.

Quote:
The apostles were charged with teaching all the doctrine of Christ. Nobody else was. Any doctrine that is "distinct" from the apostles' doctrine or teaching is not of Christ, not of God, and leads AWAY from Christ. So any doctrine that is DISTINCT or "different" from that which is taught in the Bible, is an EVIL heresy. Such non apostolic doctrines, teachings, practices, etc create division. Christians who begin to follow those heresies are DIVIDED FROM the original apostolic faith, the original apostolic practice, the original apostolic fellowship.
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