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03-17-2018, 10:11 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 316
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Re: People Who Receive The Holy Spirit Before Bapt
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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
The EBV? Don't get hysterical, just bare with the thread and you will see where you were answered. Now, answer me since I asked you over and over, do you attend a UPC church?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
James Glen I posted this question to you a few times, but you refuse to answer. Are you in the UPC?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGlen
Why r u laughing?
I do.
Now answer the question I asked.
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EB, do u not see those 3 letter in that post? I already answered you. It says “I do”. I wasn’t accepting your proposal, I was answering your question.
Now answer my question on what makes JN baptism legit, regarding the candidate calling on the name of Jesus, as I asked.
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03-17-2018, 10:14 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: People Who Receive The Holy Spirit Before Bapt
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGlen
EB, do u not see those 3 letter in that post? I already answered you. It says “I do”. I wasn’t accepting your proposal, I was answering your question.
Now answer my question on what makes JN baptism legit, regarding the candidate calling on the name of Jesus, as I asked.
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I thought so, so you are a UPCer who believes that Jesus name baptism is just a way, not the way. Thank you.
I answered your question Pentecostal, go back and find it, So, I don't need to BOLD it for you.
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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03-17-2018, 10:19 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: People Who Receive The Holy Spirit Before Bapt
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Originally Posted by Originalist
YOU are getting Christ's words wrong and yet have salvation. Why is it so mind blowing to you that God knows we will never be perfect?
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So like the Catholic priest God is cryptic and His salvation is a mystery? Wow, that's mind blowing. Be ye perfect as your father in heaven is perfect uses the Greek word telios. Which means complete. What does that mean in your mind?
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Originally Posted by Originalist
As for James 2...It is in the present tense, "name BEING called over you". In other words, "the noble name of him to whom you belong?" Baptism is not even mentioned.
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The Greek in every manuscript says invoked over you. Thank you.
No Jesus name baptism no salvation. It is that simple. David Wilkerson the blind guide he was and all the souls he led will be in a lake of fire. Sad, so sad, that some will continue his work.
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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03-17-2018, 10:24 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 316
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Re: People Who Receive The Holy Spirit Before Bapt
If you’re not all blab, be honest and point out the post where u answered, or repost your explanation in regard to my question.
Yes, I attend a upc.
Yes, I believe the name of Jesus has to be mentioned at baptism either by the candidate or by the Baptiser, to be scriptural JN baptism(THE way, not A way) in order for candidate to identify w the Christ...(buried w Him in baptism). Kinda hard to identify w someone thats not even mentioned, right?
Now, EB, simply give your honest personal explanation in relation to my specific question.
Last edited by JamesGlen; 03-17-2018 at 10:27 PM.
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03-17-2018, 10:30 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: People Who Receive The Holy Spirit Before Bapt
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGlen
If you’re not all blab, be honest and point out the post where u answered, or repost your explanation in regard to my question.
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James, you have issues, big ones. Go a few posts back and you will find what you seek.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGlen
Yes, I attend a upc.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGlen
Yes, I believe the name of Jesus has to be mentioned at baptism either by the candidate or by the Baptiser, to be scriptural JN baptism, in order for candidate to identify w the Christ...(buried w Him in baptism).
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Oh, so your acrobatics tonight and the past week was to show us that you are in your 20s?
Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesGlen
Now, EB, simply give your honest personal explanation in relation to my specific question.
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I answered you, Go back and find it.
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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03-17-2018, 10:35 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: People Who Receive The Holy Spirit Before Bapt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa
James 2:7
Don't they blaspheme the good name that was invoked over you?
This is what is literally found in the Greek. Yes, Paul is told to call on the name of Jesus, but Jesus tells us that being baptized by a Baptizer is fulling all righteousness. Sad to see so many fighting against Jesus name baptism tonight. Or so it seems.
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BUMP for the lukewarm UPCer.
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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03-17-2018, 11:10 PM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
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Re: People Who Receive The Holy Spirit Before Bapt
“Don’t they blaspheme the noble name that was pronounced over you at your baptism?” Holman Christian Standard Bible
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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03-18-2018, 12:52 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,018
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Re: People Who Receive The Holy Spirit Before Bapt
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckeyeBukaroo
Is this an example of God putting new oil into an old wineskin? Awhile ago, a charismatic lady asked me this and I dismissed her and ended the conversation because, deep down inside, I knew she was just trying to poke holes in my belief system. She is one of those UPC is a cult kind of people. Fast-forward a few months later and I am sitting at my desk and I start to ponder her accusatory question. I don't know how to answer it. Has anyone else ever thought of this conundrum? How did you handle it? What do the scriptures say about what almost seems like a contradiction?
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New oil in an old wineskin? Somebody got mixed up somewhere...
Jesus said people don't put new wine into old wineskins, otherwise the wineskin will burst (due to the expansion caused by the fermentation process and the old already expanded wineskin can't expand with fermenting new wine). I don't know of any passage that equates the Holy Ghost with wine, so Jesus wasnt really talking about people getting the Holy Ghost.
The context had to do with fasting, and a discrepancy between the Pharisaic rules for fasting and the Johannine fasting customs, on the one hand, and Christ and His disciples' lack of fasting on the other hand. Both the Pharisees, and John's disciples, had fasting as a regular and obligatory element of religion. Jesus gave two parables in illustration of His disciples not needing to fast at that time.
The first had to do with new fabric spliced into or sewn in to old garments. Jesus said people don't do that because it makes things worse. It isn't wise nor appropriate, the two things are dissimilar enough to not go together. The second had to with new wine in old bottles. The same point is being made: it's not done because the two things don't go together.
So how does that apply to the issue of fasting? The Pharisees, and John's disciples were operating under the Old Covenant, as part of that old "dispensation" of things. Jesus and His disciples, however, belonged to the eschatological New Covenant, which Jesus was bringing in. The new and the old aren't to be mixed. Jesus and His doctrine and Way are not to be forced into the old mold of the either the Pharisees or Johannine Judaism. So, Jesus' disciples were not subject to the scribal Talmudic rules that had proliferated and which mediated people's understanding of the Law of God. Nor were they subject to the rule or discipline of John, even though he was a prophet sent from God. (This because John's mission was preparatory to Christ's. Since Christ had arrived, John and his movement were being superceded.)
This of course doesn't mean Christ or His disciples weren't subject to the obligations of the Old Covenant at that time, but rather that they and He represented the "New Way". The old was in the process of being replaced by the new. The new was not merely something to be tacked on to the old.
So, the parable simply doesn't have anything to do with the issue of receiving the Spirit either before or after baptism. The most we could say is it shows the old covenant (including John's ministry) did not provide the Holy Ghost to people, only Jesus, the New Covenant, and the Way of faith could do that. The Spirit comes by the hearing of faith, not the works of the law.
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03-18-2018, 01:12 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood
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Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Zion aka TEXAS
Posts: 26,018
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Re: People Who Receive The Holy Spirit Before Bapt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Truthseeker
Is there such a thing as half saved?
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In modern Christendom's false view of "salvation", yes. The Bible however has a different take: salvation is a past event, an ongoing present reality, and a future promised consummation.
Salvation is both a condition (or status), and a process. In one sense, salvation occurred at Calvary. Indeed, it may be said to have occurred "from the foundation of the world." But that salvation has to be "worked out" or manifested. It has to be manifested in us, in our life. It begins with God's calling, and is finished at the Resurrection Day. In between those two, there is hearing the Gospel, believing, repenting, exercising faith, baptism, receiving the Spirit, holiness of heart and life, ministry and service, perseverance to the end, growth in grace, etc.
Different people may be at different points in that journey. One may have gotten as far as repentance, for example. They need to continue and press onward toward the mark of the prize of the high calling. Are they "fully saved"? Is anyone alive "fully saved", as if they could just stop where they are and go no further? Nobody is FULLY saved until they have been Resurrected and survived the Judgment Seat.
So rather than fretting about if people are 10% saved, or 50% saved, or 90% saved, perhaps we should just encourage everyone to continue in faith and conform more and more to the original pattern of "the faith" known to the apostles? And if anyone balks and decides they will not do so, then it is clear such have no hope.
Why? Because "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." If you "stop following" the leading of the Spirit, you abandon all realistic hope, expectation, or reason for thinking you are anywhere on the road to glory.
So one who repents, but rejects baptism, is not having any evidence they have a real hope at all. One who receives the Holy Ghost, but rejects baptism, or holiness, or repentance, is likewise only entertaining a false hope.
Salvation is a life, a Way, a whole package deal. It is not simply a coupon for 100% off hellfire.
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03-18-2018, 01:15 AM
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Unvaxxed Pureblood too
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 39,162
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Re: People Who Receive The Holy Spirit Before Bapt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
In modern Christendom's false view of "salvation", yes. The Bible however has a different take: salvation is a past event, an ongoing present reality, and a future promised consummation.
Salvation is both a condition (or status), and a process. In one sense, salvation occurred at Calvary. Indeed, it may be said to have occurred "from the foundation of the world." But that salvation has to be "worked out" or manifested. It has to be manifested in us, in our life. It begins with God's calling, and is finished at the Resurrection Day. In between those two, there is hearing the Gospel, believing, repenting, exercising faith, baptism, receiving the Spirit, holiness of heart and life, ministry and service, perseverance to the end, growth in grace, etc.
Different people may be at different points in that journey. One may have gotten as far as repentance, for example. They need to continue and press onward toward the mark of the prize of the high calling. Are they "fully saved"? Is anyone alive "fully saved", as if they could just stop where they are and go no further? Nobody is FULLY saved until they have been Resurrected and survived the Judgment Seat.
So rather than fretting about if people are 10% saved, or 50% saved, or 90% saved, perhaps we should just encourage everyone to continue in faith and conform more and more to the original pattern of "the faith" known to the apostles? And if anyone balks and decides they will not do so, then it is clear such have no hope.
Why? Because "as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." If you "stop following" the leading of the Spirit, you abandon all realistic hope, expectation, or reason for thinking you are anywhere on the road to glory.
So one who repents, but rejects baptism, is not having any evidence they have a real hope at all. One who receives the Holy Ghost, but rejects baptism, or holiness, or repentance, is likewise only entertaining a false hope.
Salvation is a life, a Way, a whole package deal. It is not simply a coupon for 100% off hellfire.
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Thank you Jesus
__________________
“Burn the Boats!!!” — Hernan Cortes
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