Saint Abuse

[n david]

Since there are a few threads beating up Pastors, let's discuss abusive saints.

If you've ever been a Pastor or associate, you know them.

They call several times a week, asking for spiritual advice. They request to speak with you after every service, sometimes taking an hour or more. They cry and complain about their marriage or spiritual life, yet don't listen or do anything with the advice given.

They're also quick to complain and backstab you if you're unable to meet their demands. God forbid the Pastor take a day off, or request to schedule a meeting at another time because there are visiting family members or friends waiting at home for lunch Sunday after the morning service.

They call for financial help with bills or rent, then blow up when it's cut off after several months of them not budgeting their money properly. They have money for their Disney vacation, but can't afford the rent. They have cable, multiple cell phones and tablets, wifi and other gadgets, but can't afford to pay for food or medicine.

Then comes the advent of the internet. AOL, MySpace, Everyone's Connected and now Facebook and internet forums. Now Pastors aren't just slandered against in the local assembly or around other churches. It's the world wide web! Now they're libeled online for the world to see. And God forbid they ever discuss Pastoral issues with other Pastors.

[Servant's <3]

Matthew 5:44-48 "But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect"

I do not diminish the harm that "saints" do to their pastors. Such is the cost of being a pastor. To give of yourself for another even while they yet harm you. They did far worse to Christ and yet he LOVED them anyway and did not hold it against them.

To follow as we should is not easy. The road is perilous. Still a pastor must endure. I am so thankful I have a patient, loving, and tender hearted pastor. I would not dream of speaking Ill of my pastor but I know some that attempt to do so. I try not to tolerate it.

[Praxeas]

Originally Posted by n david

Since there are a few threads beating up Pastors, let's discuss abusive saints.

If you've ever been a Pastor or associate, you know them.

They call several times a week, asking for spiritual advice. They request to speak with you after every service, sometimes taking an hour or more. They cry and complain about their marriage or spiritual life, yet don't listen or do anything with the advice given.

They're also quick to complain and backstab you if you're unable to meet their demands. God forbid the Pastor take a day off, or request to schedule a meeting at another time because there are visiting family members or friends waiting at home for lunch Sunday after the morning service.

They call for financial help with bills or rent, then blow up when it's cut off after several months of them not budgeting their money properly. They have money for their Disney vacation, but can't afford the rent. They have cable, multiple cell phones and tablets, wifi and other gadgets, but can't afford to pay for food or medicine.

Then comes the advent of the internet. AOL, MySpace, Everyone's Connected and now Facebook and internet forums. Now Pastors aren't just slandered against in the local assembly or around other churches. It's the world wide web! Now they're libeled online for the world to see. And God forbid they ever discuss Pastoral issues with other Pastors.

Your "Saint" sounds like they are mentally ill.

[votivesoul]

It could be that so much is expected and demanded of pastors, that they are regularly abused by saints is because the expectations of what a pastor is supposed to be in the world compared to what Christ expects of His pastors is two different things, and that, unfortunately, the present issues are promulgated by the pastorate as much as by the saints.

If a pastor never tries to be a life coach, financial advisor, psychologist, marriage counselor, and etc. people will learn real quick to not go to him for such stuff. Rather, they would let him fulfill his calling to feed Christ's sheep the sincere milk of the Word, no more, no less.

[Rudy]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It could be that so much is expected and demanded of pastors, that they are regularly abused by saints is because the expectations of what a pastor is supposed to be in the world compared to what Christ expects of His pastors is two different things, and that, unfortunately, the present issues are promulgated by the pastorate as much as by the saints.

If a pastor never tries to be a life coach, financial advisor, psychologist, marriage counselor, and etc. people will learn real quick to not go to him for such stuff. Rather, they would let him fulfill his calling to feed Christ's sheep the sincere milk of the Word, no more, no less.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It could be that so much is expected and demanded of pastors, that they are regularly abused by saints is because the expectations of what a pastor is supposed to be in the world compared to what Christ expects of His pastors is two different things, and that, unfortunately, the present issues are promulgated by the pastorate as much as by the saints.

If a pastor never tries to be a life coach, financial advisor, psychologist, marriage counselor, and etc. people will learn real quick to not go to him for such stuff. Rather, they would let him fulfill his calling to feed Christ's sheep the sincere milk of the Word, no more, no less.

[n david]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It could be that so much is expected and demanded of pastors, that they are regularly abused by saints is because the expectations of what a pastor is supposed to be in the world compared to what Christ expects of His pastors is two different things, and that, unfortunately, the present issues are promulgated by the pastorate as much as by the saints.

If a pastor never tries to be a life coach, financial advisor, psychologist, marriage counselor, and etc. people will learn real quick to not go to him for such stuff. Rather, they would let him fulfill his calling to feed Christ's sheep the sincere milk of the Word, no more, no less.

So if you're a Pastor, and a couple comes to you for spiritual advice for their marriage, would you send them to an unsaved marriage counselor? Same for any family issue?

Couldn't the sincere milk of the Word apply to spiritual advice on any one of the things you posted above? (Marriage, family, finances, etc?) IMO it could and does.

Now, I don't believe the Pastor should be a busybody or dictator and try to intrude, but if asked, he should be able to answer with the sincere milk of the Word.

Look, our churches have more couples either divorced or becoming divorced than ever before. They have more people on anti-depressants and mental illness drugs than ever before.

Yet, we have more marriage counseling and books on marriage than at any time previous, and more church members than ever are seeking secular psychologists. Yet, the answer cannot be found in secular humanism, but in the "sincere milk of the Word," and given by a Holy Ghost filled Pastor who has prayed and sought God over the issue.

We've dumbed down the ministry to where they're just supposed to be some self-help speaker. We don't expect them to pray and hear from God and speak Thus saith the Lord. Truthfully, we don't want them to! And it's affected the ministry as well. They see, hear and read the resentment against them and feel what's the use trying to give a word when the people refuse to listen.

Before someone twists my words, I don't believe God speaks only to ministry. I don't believe there is a buffer between God and I, which is only bridged by a Pastor. However, I do believe sometimes God will reveal things to the ministry which can cause us to hear and understand what's He's been trying to tell us and we've been ignoring.

Just thinking out loud.

[n david]

At the Judgement, will a Pastor be held accountable for how he led the assembly he was over? Specifically, will a Pastor be responsible for the souls of the people sitting in the assembly he was over? If a Pastor stood by and did nothing while marriages fell apart, families were broken apart, adultery was going on, people were living in sin and not being transformed in the assembly in which he preached and taught, would God judge him for it?

[votivesoul]

Originally Posted by n david

So if you're a Pastor, and a couple comes to you for spiritual advice for their marriage, would you send them to an unsaved marriage counselor? Same for any family issue?

Couldn't the sincere milk of the Word apply to spiritual advice on any one of the things you posted above? (Marriage, family, finances, etc?) IMO it could and does.

Now, I don't believe the Pastor should be a busybody or dictator and try to intrude, but if asked, he should be able to answer with the sincere milk of the Word.

Look, our churches have more couples either divorced or becoming divorced than ever before. They have more people on anti-depressants and mental illness drugs than ever before.

Yet, we have more marriage counseling and books on marriage than at any time previous, and more church members than ever are seeking secular psychologists. Yet, the answer cannot be found in secular humanism, but in the "sincere milk of the Word," and given by a Holy Ghost filled Pastor who has prayed and sought God over the issue.

We've dumbed down the ministry to where they're just supposed to be some self-help speaker. We don't expect them to pray and hear from God and speak Thus saith the Lord. Truthfully, we don't want them to! And it's affected the ministry as well. They see, hear and read the resentment against them and feel what's the use trying to give a word when the people refuse to listen.

Before someone twists my words, I don't believe God speaks only to ministry. I don't believe there is a buffer between God and I, which is only bridged by a Pastor. However, I do believe sometimes God will reveal things to the ministry which can cause us to hear and understand what's He's been trying to tell us and we've been ignoring.

Just thinking out loud.

Valid concerns and questions, n david, so hopefully I can clarify and expand my quick reply.

Regarding:

So if you're a Pastor, and a couple comes to you for spiritual advice for their marriage, would you send them to an unsaved marriage counselor? Same for any family issue?

I've had people come to me for marriage advise. I share the Scriptures and give some insight. The rest is up to them to seek God, pray, repent if necessary, perfect holiness in the fear of the Lord and honor their vows.

Compare that to some 12 week course held at the pastor's house once a week in which everyone goes through some man-written manual on how to be a good Christian couple.

Which one will lead to burn out?

Which one fulfills the role of a Scriptural pastor and which one is something the world expects of pastors?

Regarding:

Couldn't the sincere milk of the Word apply to spiritual advice on any one of the things you posted above? (Marriage, family, finances, etc?) IMO it could and does.

Yes, it does. But I know pastor's that sit down with couples, go over all their financial statements (e.g. check stubs, bills, debts, mortgages, and etc.), draft a budget, plug in the numbers and subtract a tithe and offering, and have a family living down to the counting of pennies each month.

That may be good fiscal management and I'm not against that, if it helps (as I know it has helped someone close to me) but that isn't the sincere milk of the Word.

The sincere milk of the Word is "Your Heavenly Father knows what you have need of...".

Yes, such a budget may fix a problem, but imagine doing that sixty times a month if the church is large because so many people are mishandling their assets?

What's more important? Fixing someone's mess or teaching them the principles of the Word and letting God lead the person to fix their own mess?

Which one leads to burnout?

Which one describes the Scriptural calling of a pastor and which one is merely the expectations the world places upon pastors?

Regarding:

Look, our churches have more couples either divorced or becoming divorced than ever before. They have more people on anti-depressants and mental illness drugs than ever before.

A sad fact, but why is this the reality?

Is it because shepherds are burning themselves out running ragged to do Christ's job for Him?

Is it because they aren't as vested as they should be in prayer and fasting and revelation of the Word because they're so burnt out holding so many hands?

Or, could it be that a victorious life in Christ isn't the central message of the pastor's preaching to the saints because he may end up preaching himself out of his job?

Imagine a church that didn't need much pastoring by the pastor? How useless would the pastor begin to feel?

Some things in the ministry are caused by the ministry.

My wife and I invited a youth pastor and his family over for dinner one time. Our kids played with their kids while we talked shop. He spoke of how so many of the older youths are coming to him seeking advice about the future (college? workforce? marriage?) and he admitted to my wife and me that he was at a loss on what to say, even though he felt this burden to counsel and share. He asked me what I would do.

I said, "I never advise anyone anything when it comes to big, life-changing decisions". Their jaws dropped, so I explained.

I told them, if someone comes to me and I tell them what I think they should do, and they go and do it, and it turns out to be a mistake, and it negatively affects their life and perhaps such a negative stroke in their life causes them to stumble, then what have I done?

I explained that all big life changing decisions must be guided by the Lord alone. If someone does only what I would do they will only receive what I receive and that may not be God's will for them. He may want something different, less, more, better, etc.

Basically, I got out of the "here's how to live your life according to me" game a long time ago.

Each saint will stand at the judgment seat of Christ with no pastor, elder, leader, prophet, apostle, bishop, friend, or parent and give an account to the Lord for everything they did in life.

Imagine telling the Lord Jesus, "I took that job/married that person/transferred to that church/quit that ministry/had that surgery/etc. because my (fill in the blank minister) said I should and I wanted to obey him/her".

Think that's going to fly with the Son of the Living God?

Not a chance. Saints needs to be taught to rely completely on the Lord for all things as Head of the Church, not continually reaching out horizontally. That's just arm the flesh. Jesus didn't say, abide in the church, or abide in the ministry, or abide in the "man of God". He said "abide in Me for without Me, you can do nothing".

With a church, a pastor, a bishop, an elder, a prophet, a whatever, God's saints can do a whole lot of damage. But in Christ, no saint will ever go wrong.

So let's ask the question: Is this how saints are being taught to live by the shepherds in their midst? Or is a co-dependent "you need me as the man of God in your life or you won't make it to heaven" being taught?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It could be that so much is expected and demanded of pastors, that they are regularly abused by saints is because the expectations of what a pastor is supposed to be in the world compared to what Christ expects of His pastors is two different things, and that, unfortunately, the present issues are promulgated by the pastorate as much as by the saints.

If a pastor never tries to be a life coach, financial advisor, psychologist, marriage counselor, and etc. people will learn real quick to not go to him for such stuff. Rather, they would let him fulfill his calling to feed Christ's sheep the sincere milk of the Word, no more, no less.

How long have you been a pastor?