The "Binitarian" Jesus

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by diakonos

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

Earl Morse Wilbur.
Solid English.

However, that may be the editor of an edition.

Earl Morse Wilbur is 1866-1956.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Morse_Wilbur

And in some places it says he first translated it into English in 1932, so the 1801 and 1802 dates might be something different.

The Two Treatises of Servetus on the Trinity: On the Errors of the Trinity, 7 Books, A.D. 1531. Dialogues on the Trinity, 2 Books. On the Righteousness of Christ's Kingdom, 4 Chapters, A.D. 1532
https://archive.org/details/M.Servet...e/n19/mode/2up

Thank you!

[Costeon]

Originally Posted by Jito463

The fact is - as was already pointed out earlier in the thread - the great mystery of Godliness is how God was manifested in the flesh. No one can know exactly how it works, just that it does. Yet, we have many verses which show Jesus speaking as God or as man. So either Jesus is another God, or Jesus is the one great God. One verse I like to point out (that I don't see often used), is John 14:16-18

Indeed it is a mystery. But it does seem to me that Jesus reveals how it worked. Not that he sometimes spoke as God and sometimes spoke as man, or sometimes acted as God and sometimes acted as man, but in the Gospel of John he several times says he only spoke as the Father communicated to him, and he acted as the Father revealed to him to act. Or at other times he says that the Father gave him authority to do things, not that he inherently already had it "as God."

For example:

John 5.19-20: 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel."

John 7.16-17: 16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

John 12.49-50: 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Costeon

Indeed it is a mystery. But it does seem to me that Jesus reveals how it worked. Not that he sometimes spoke as God and sometimes spoke as man, or sometimes acted as God and sometimes acted as man, but in the Gospel of John he several times says he only spoke as the Father communicated to him, and he acted as the Father revealed to him to act. Or at other times he says that the Father gave him authority to do things, not that he inherently already had it "as God."

For example:

John 5.19-20: 19 Then Jesus answered and said to them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do; for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner. 20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does; and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel."

John 7.16-17: 16 Jesus answered them and said, “My doctrine is not Mine, but His who sent Me. 17 If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God or whether I speak on My own authority.

John 12.49-50: 49 For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak. 50 And I know that His command is everlasting life. Therefore, whatever I speak, just as the Father has told Me, so I speak.”

Do you think we could gain something from, perhaps, Psalms or other books in the OT where we understand that sometimes the writer is speaking and other times it is God? Psalms has a lot of examples. Psalm 69, for example. I can’t quite flesh that out, no pun intended, but I keep thinking of this in this discussion.

[Pressing-On]

Originally Posted by Costeon

For me, this verse does not automatically clear things up. The verse says the Messiah, the Son of God, will be called Mighty God and Everlasting Father, but in my opinion that doesn't explain anything but just mentions the facts that everyone debates about.



I agree that he is our example, and he had to be a man. Hebrews explicitly said he had to be just like us.



I can understand why you and many others would feel this way. Sometimes I feel this way. I personally am not trying to compete with the intellectuals, but since the Oneness movement asserts that Trinitarians are in gross false doctrine, and many would say they are going to hell for their false doctrine, I feel like I have to be able to give strong arguments that explain the scriptures in a compelling way, or at least in a reasonable way. The thing that sets us off from the rest of Christianity in the most profound way is our doctrine of God. We are considered heretics first and foremost because of our doctrine of God. The standard Oneness interpretation of Isaiah 9.6, that it shows that Jesus "is the Father," is not convincing to the vast majority of Trinitarians.

Regarding Cornelius and those added to the church daily, I was recently wondering how they conceptualized Jesus in light of how Peter distinguished God from Jesus when he was preaching to them:

Acts 2.22: “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know."

Acts 10.38, 42: "38 how God anointed Jesus of Nazareth with the Holy Spirit and with power, who went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, for God was with Him. . . . 42 And He commanded us to preach to the people, and to testify that it is He who was ordained by God to be Judge of the living and the dead."

I can't imagine them hearing these things and concluding that Peter simply was saying that God and Jesus are one and the same. At any rate, no Oneness Pentecostal I know talks this way about Jesus and God.

I think that the Jewish people knew that, as said in Isaiah 43:11 - I, even I, am the Lord, and besides me there is no Savior.”, there is only one God.

The Shema is the most essential prayer in Judaism and is recited both morning and evening. I believe that the Apostles saw a vessel that God made. They had to have understood Mary’s life and the prophesy. That wasn’t done in a corner.

I understand where you are coming from, but while we try to find the exact words to combat, if you will, the falseness of Trinitarianism, we should center ourselves in what we know, what the Apostles knew and felt being in Jesus’ presence. They knew more after He rose from the dead and knew more when filled with His Spirit. It is simple for me - Emmanuel, God with us. Basically, Jesus was to the Apostles what the burning bush was to Moses. IMO.

And for me, that is the place to begin, center and stay all the while. It is life, knowledge, wisdom and power.

[Pressing-On]

I wonder if we have ever thought about how the Jewish people felt. After believing and after receiving the gift of the Spirit, sitting alone reading Psalms. Who do we have in view when we read it?

Think about Psalm 63, reading through that and reading the last verse. I imagine there were many tears shed.

[diakonos]

So MTD is a modalist. Alrighty.

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by diakonos

So MTD is a modalist. Alrighty.

Well yes.

It's the best way to understand the "distinctness" between God and the Logos in the OT and God and Christ in the New.

[1 God]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Well yes.

It's the best way to understand the "distinctness" between God and the Logos in the OT and God and Christ in the New.

All these "ist's" rob Jesus of his individuality, though.

[Michael The Disciple]

Not really. This is a great example of "modalism".

John 3:13

13And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

While Jesus was standing there on Earth talking to Nicodemus he was still present in Heaven simultaneously!

In one mode of being he was in Heaven. In another mode of being he was on Earth. In Heaven he was YAH the one true God. On Earth he was the man.....the MEDIATOR between God and men.