UPC doctrinal contradiction

[OilCityCajun]

Originally Posted by DAII

Are you referring to Luke 24:47 ?...Don't see your aphesis kai aphesis? The phraseology you offer doesn't seem to be the words of our Master...

Yes, I was and you are correct. My error was taking the following quotes and applying inductive reasoning, rather than researching Luke 24:47 itself.

Originally Posted by Praxeas

...áphesis; gen. aphéseōs, fem. noun. from aphíēmi (G863), to cause to stand away, to release one's sins from the sinner. Forgiveness, remission...

Originally Posted by Praxeas

Remission IS the same as forgiveness. Acts 2:38 uses the word "remission" in the KJV but in the greek it's the same word for forgiveness.

I had assumed if aphesis is the same word for remission and forgiveness then it would be the word in Luke 24 and anywhere else either of those words are used. Now I have to do quite a bit of praying and meditating to find out exactly what these newly revealed facts mean, doctrinally.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

Yes, I was and you are correct. My error was taking the following quotes and applying inductive reasoning, rather than researching Luke 24:47 itself.



I had assumed if aphesis is the same word for remission and forgiveness then it would be the word in Luke 24 and anywhere else either of those words are used. Now I have to do quite a bit of praying and meditating to find out exactly what these newly revealed facts mean, doctrinally.

In that search remember what the meaning of true biblical repentance/faith means as they are two sides of the same coin, imo ...

Also the bulk of overwhelming scripture which links forgiveness to repentance/faith.

Again afesin or aphesis ... is mentioned once ...

Some would like to then make the leap that he said it's in His name ... thus pointing to a necessary baptismal formula in the proper birth name of Jesus... yet ignoring the biblical context of His name throughout the OT and NT ... nor a single explicit requirement for proper baptismal formula from our Master in order to be forgiven.

Search.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by DAII

In that search remember what the meaning of true biblical repentance/faith means as they are two sides of the same coin, imo ...

Also the bulk of overwhelming scripture which links forgiveness to repentance/faith.

Again afesin or aphesis ... is mentioned once ...

Some would like to then make the leap that he said it's in His name ... thus pointing to a necessary baptismal formula in the proper birth name of Jesus... yet ignoring the biblical context of His name throughout the OT and NT ... nor a single explicit requirement for proper baptismal formula from our Master in order to be forgiven.

Search.

and who is saying repentance has nothing to do with baptism? Repentance has direction and the result is baptism. One gives power to the other. Repentance involves belief to the context of the message and in initial aspects of salvation the result is unification by baptism to Christ. As I have said on this board many many times. Repentance and baptism are interlinked togethor and cannot be pulled apart.

[TheLegalist]

DAIIThe following is a post from our friend, Shelby Smith (Adino) ...

I think it merits examination in light of this thread ....

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A post exploring the reception of sin remission at the conversion of man's heart in repentance prior to water baptism:

The idea that forgiveness of sins is received at repentance permeates the NT. Matthew, Mark, Luke and John each make the point that forgiveness is received at repentance by quoting from Isaiah 6:10.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed.

To understand with the heart and “convert” in Isaiah 6:10 meant to “return to God in faith” or to “repent”. To “be healed” meant to be “made whole” or to be “made free from error or sin.” It meant to be forgiven.

Isaiah 6:10

Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert (i.e., repent), and be healed (i.e., forgiven).

Those who repented would be forgiven.

Matthew 13:15

For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal (i.e., forgive) them.

See also Mark 4:11-12 (which uses “forgiven”); John 12:37-40; and Acts 28:23-29.

To authors Matthew, Mark, Luke (in Acts), and John, “the heart” turning back to God in repentance brought healing / forgiveness.

Acts 3:19

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Forgiveness is received when the repenting heart converts to faith in Christ.

Luke 24:47

And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

The phrase “repentance and remission of sins” in the Nestle Aland Greek version of Luke 24:47 is “metanoia eis aphesis” which is everywhere else interpreted “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins.”

Mark 1:4

John did baptize in the wilderness, and preach the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins.

Luke 3:3

And he came into all the country about Jordan, preaching the baptism of repentance for (eis) the remission of sins;

John’s baptism pointed to repentance which was FOR the remission of sins.

There is strong evidence to suggest that Luke 24:47 teaches that “repentance FOR (EIS) the remission of sins” was to be preached through faith in the name of Jesus!

Acts 10:43

To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The repenting heart returning to God via faith in Jesus Christ absolutely SHALL receive the remission / forgiveness of sins.


Acts 2:38 supports this conclusion when you realize that the word “repent” is written in the 2nd person plural, the phrase “be baptized” in the 3rd person singular, and the phrase “for the remission of sins” again in the 2nd person plural.

It is grammatically sound to realize that the 2nd person plural phrases are connected while the insertion of a 3rd person singular phrase is parenthetical. Meaning, sin remission is to be connected to repentance and not to water baptism. Baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion as that which points to the forgiveness received when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Jesus Christ.[/

Bruce Metzger was the editor of the Textual Commentary on The Greek New Testament, published by the United Bible Societies. He is currently teaching at Princeton Theological Seminary in New Jersey. He wrote, "In reply to your recent inquiry may I say that, in my view, the phrase 'eis aphesin hamartion' in Acts 2:38 applies in sense to both of the preceding verbs."

F. W. Gingrich was a professor of New Testament Greek at Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania. Gingrich, along with William Arndt, published A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature in 1957. He wrote, "The difference in person and number of 'repent' and 'be baptized' is caused by the fact that 'repent' is a direct address in the second person plural, while 'be baptized' is governed by the subject 'every one of you' and so is third person singular. 'Every one of you' is, of course, a collective noun."

Arthur L. Farstad was the chairman of the New King James Executive Review Committee and general editor of the NKJV New Testament. The NKJV was translated by over 120 Greek scholars, many of whom teach in Baptist schools. He wrote, "Since the expression 'eis aphesin hamartion' is a prepositional phrase with no verbal endings or singular or plural endings. I certainly agree that grammatically it can go with both repentance and baptism. In fact, I would think that it does go with both of them."

John R. Werner is the International Consultant in Translation to the Wycliffe Bible Translators. He was also a consultant to Friberg and Friberg with the Analytical Greek New Testament. From 1962 to 1972 he was professor of Greek at Trinity Christian College. He said, "Whenever two verbs are connected by kai 'and' and then followed by a modifier (such as a prepositional phrase, as in Acts 2:38), it is grammatically possible that modifier modifies either both the verbs, or only the latter one. This is because there is no punctuation in the ancient manuscripts, so we don't know whether the author intended to pause between the first verb and the 'and.' It does not matter that, here in Acts 2:38, one of the verbs is second person plural ("y'all") and the other is third-person singular ("is to"). They are both imperative, and the fact that they are joined by kai 'and' is sufficient evidence that the author may have regarded them as a single unit to which his modifier applied."

Barclay Newman and Eugene Nida edited The Translator's Handbook On The Acts Of The Apostles. This book, published by the United Bible Societies, says on page 60: "So that your sins will be forgiven (literally 'into a forgiveness of your sins') in the Greek may express either purpose or result; but the large majority of translators understand it as indicating purpose. The phrase modifies both main verbs: turn away from your sins and be baptized."

The New Testament plainly teaches that accountable people have to be baptized into Christ in order to have their sins remitted. Have you been baptized for the remission of sins? "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16).

source... David Padfield

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by OilCityCajun

So were James and Paul at loggerheads? Or did they have a deeper understanding that faith inspires works and works are the evidence of faith?

They were making two different points to two different audiences at two different periods in time.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by johnny44

It takes a shell,powder and the bullet for it to be effective.

Originally Posted by Arphaxad

and a firing pin, trigger and finger for the gun

But all it takes to fire a loaded weapon is the decision to do so.

Salvation is our 'loaded" weapon. To "fire" this you just have to make up your mind and decide to do so.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Bruce Metzger was the editor of the Textual Commentary on The Greek New Testament, published by the United Bible Societies. He is currently teaching at Princeton Theological Seminary in New Jersey. He wrote, "In reply to your recent inquiry may I say that, in my view, the phrase 'eis aphesin hamartion' in Acts 2:38 applies in sense to both of the preceding verbs."

F. W. Gingrich was a professor of New Testament Greek at Albright College in Reading, Pennsylvania. Gingrich, along with William Arndt, published A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature in 1957. He wrote, "The difference in person and number of 'repent' and 'be baptized' is caused by the fact that 'repent' is a direct address in the second person plural, while 'be baptized' is governed by the subject 'every one of you' and so is third person singular. 'Every one of you' is, of course, a collective noun."

Arthur L. Farstad was the chairman of the New King James Executive Review Committee and general editor of the NKJV New Testament. The NKJV was translated by over 120 Greek scholars, many of whom teach in Baptist schools. He wrote, "Since the expression 'eis aphesin hamartion' is a prepositional phrase with no verbal endings or singular or plural endings. [SIC] I certainly agree that grammatically it can go with both repentance and baptism. In fact, I would think that it does go with both of them."

John R. Werner is the International Consultant in Translation to the Wycliffe Bible Translators. He was also a consultant to Friberg and Friberg with the Analytical Greek New Testament. From 1962 to 1972 he was professor of Greek at Trinity Christian College. He said, "Whenever two verbs are connected by kai 'and' and then followed by a modifier (such as a prepositional phrase, as in Acts 2:38), it is grammatically possible that modifier modifies either both the verbs, or only the latter one. This is because there is no punctuation in the ancient manuscripts, so we don't know whether the author intended to pause between the first verb and the 'and.' It does not matter that, here in Acts 2:38, one of the verbs is second person plural ("y'all") and the other is third-person singular ("is to"). They are both imperative, and the fact that they are joined by kai 'and' is sufficient evidence that the author may have regarded them as a single unit to which his modifier applied."

Barclay Newman and Eugene Nida edited The Translator's Handbook On The Acts Of The Apostles. This book, published by the United Bible Societies, says on page 60: "So that your sins will be forgiven (literally 'into a forgiveness of your sins') in the Greek may express either purpose or result; but the large majority of translators understand it as indicating purpose. The phrase modifies both main verbs: turn away from your sins and be baptized."

? Bruce Metzger is dead. A great writer, but dead. Your source is apparently dated. He appears to agree with my earlier assessment that it means "both", at any rate.

The Gingrich and Arndt discussion doesn't even apply.

Farstadt uses poor grammar to make the same grammatical point as Metzger.

Werner also agrees with Metzger (and NOT your point TL).

Newman and Nida appear to agree with certain conditions to your view, after first admitting that it could actually go either way.

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

The New Testament plainly teaches that accountable people have to be baptized into Christ in order to have their sins remitted. Have you been baptized for the remission of sins? "And now why are you waiting? Arise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16).

source... David Padfield

"Plainly!?!" HAH!

The majority of the sources you cited don't even "plainly" agree with your conclusion, and the one that does equivocates with honesty and candor.

So what was "Padfield's" point here, TL? He doesn't even appear to have read the stuff he cut and pasted before you cut and pasted this. You have to actually read this stuff before posting it if you want to make a point.

[mental]

Originally Posted by DAII

Acts 2:38 supports this conclusion when you realize that the word “repent” is written in the 2nd person plural, the phrase “be baptized” in the 3rd person singular, and the phrase “for the remission of sins” again in the 2nd person plural.

It is grammatically sound to realize that the 2nd person plural phrases are connected while the insertion of a 3rd person singular phrase is parenthetical. Meaning, sin remission is to be connected to repentance and not to water baptism. Baptism becomes a parenthetical insertion as that which points to the forgiveness received when the repenting heart converts to faith in God through Jesus Christ.

What are his sources for this?

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Didn't james teach by works is a man justified as Abraham?

Not at all. James taught that by "works" one's faith is not "dead, being alone."

The question of when and how a believer becomes "justified" is a completely different question than what a believer does after being justified. However, if we don't get this right nothing else really matters because we are "still in our sins" (1 Corinthians 15:16-17) no matter what the preacher said when we were in the water or how well we emulated Borat's performance.

[ouden katakrim]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Salvation is our 'loaded" weapon. To "fire" this you just have to make up your mind and decide to do so.

(the calvinist in me cringes.)

oduen