Apostolic But Not Believing Jesus is The Father?

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Acts 2:38 man

God BECAME man in Christ Jesus. Colossians 1 & 2.
Hebrews 1:1-2 says in Greek text "God has spoken unto us in these last days in his son-ness" In other words, in the form of a son.
When Nicodemus was talking to Jesus he was looking at God (John 3:13 KJV).

God didn't become man. The Word became flesh.
The Word is a distinct manifestation of God yet the Word was God
The Father is a distinct manifestation of God yet the Father is God
Jesus is a distinct manifestation of God yet Jesus is God
Nicodemus was looking at the temporal body of Jesus Christ yet God was speaking to Him through his Son manifestation. He recognized the God in Him.

John 3.1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:

2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.

Deuteronomy 6. 4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

[Esaias]

It's happening right here in this thread...

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by jfrog

It is pointless. Because if you cannot admit that jesus is the father then you have went to far in the other direction. You are right and they are right. However you take your rightness as excluding their rightness and that's why the discussion is pointless, because you are both right, because jesus is the father and because jesus isn't the father. And yet both sides only admit half the truth and deny the other half.

I can see your point in saying that. It is not that I do not understand admitting that Jesus is the Father. Most I know equate the term Father specifically with God. I am just trying to beleaguere the distinctions of manifestations that we sometimes overlook. Jesus is one and the same with the Father because both terms identify each with God who was united temporally in the body of Jesus Christ.

I once had a pastor that posed the question "Does God have a Son"? Then dogmatically declared God does not have a Son and if you think God has a Son you are Trinitarian and are going to hell. Well I didn't and don't agree but wouldn't say anything so as to not cause anyone else to mistrust the pastor. I believe he was sincere in his belief but sincerity does not make it right. So many times our sincerely believing something does not make it right even if we put on our rose colored glasses that only allow us to see our own side.

[J.A. Perez]

[QUOTE=Pastor DTSalaz;1350440]Thank you for giving the respect I will do the same. Just because you make that statement, "By these words that you typed it is clear you are a trinitarian.", does not make it true. Have you read my previous posts? Just because of your lack of understanding I will not call you Trinitarian. I will try to enlighten you so that your argument can be properly focused. By trying to prove that Jesus is the Father you are categorically committing a logical fallacy. You contradicted yourself just in the short statement above.

Statement 1
Any One God believer knows Jesus is the Name of The Everlasting Father.
According to Isaiah 9:6

Very strong exertion. When was Isaiah 9.6 written? Both statements could be false when taken to one God believers prior to when this was written. Not even true of many contemporaries of Jesus including the apostles. After their understanding was opened after his resurrection then this statement can be categorically called true. We in time know his name to be Jesus. Did Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses know him as Jesus or use the title everlasting Father for God. These were all one God believers. How often does the use of Father occur for God in the old testament.

Statement 2
In order for anything or anyone to be Everlasting they have to have always been and always will be.

Your statement for Father is categorically wrong. Now God is immutable and He doesn't change. His essence remains unchangeable. His appellations have according to His self revelations to humanity in time and the unfolding of His eternal plan of salvation. You are applying a Johnny come lately revelation as a priori for all time.

Statement 3
The sonship had a beginning at Bethleham.
But He as Spirit has always been God.

Now you have changed the category again from your first statement to a category in time. Then from Father to Spirit. Could you say He as Father has always been God? Or He as God has always been Father?

Isaiah 9.6 says his name shall be called......everlasting Father. A concept of God is being portrayed for our understanding. We understand anthropomorphic terminology. Jesus also spoke in parables to relay heavenly truths using earthly concepts that were common to his hearers.

I am third generation apostolic by the way. I have grown up believing this truth and hearing some preaching and teaching that was far off base as well.

QUOTE]

With all due respect,

I do not agree, you sound more like Trinitarian than Apostolic.

My family is 4 generations assemblies of god, with many preachers among them, I know their arguments.

Sincerely,
J.A. Perez

[Pastor DTSalaz]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Jesus pre existed as God the Father.

Paul gave us this.

1Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3And did all eat the same spiritual meat; 4And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

Paul said in the OT the Rock was Christ. If we can discover the identity of the ROCK we will know who Christ is.

Dueteronomy 32:6

3Because I will publish the name of the LORD: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
4He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
5They have corrupted themselves, their spot is not the spot of his children: they are a perverse and crooked generation.
6Do ye thus requite the LORD, O foolish people and unwise? is not he thy father that hath bought thee? hath he not made thee, and established thee?

Do you see what I see? The one who is THE ROCK in the OT was The LORD, YHWH. He also was their God, ELOHIM. And in verse 6 he was THEIR FATHER!

So when Paul said that Rock was Christ he meant Christ pre existed as God the Father in the OT. This should become second nature to every Apostolic.

The rock is a type and symbol. Out of the rock came water which is life.

He is their Father because he bought them, made and established them.

All of the temple is also a type and symbol of Christ. Christ is our salvation and all that was a type was a means for salvation to those who took advantage of it's efficacy.

More later

[FlamingZword]

How can Jesus be the Father and Jesus be the Son?

It is a Paradox, that is incomprehensible to us humans, for our understanding of how God works is beyond us.

In order to understand the Oneness of God we need to quit thinking in human terms and instead think in terms of a transcendental God who is able to be much more than what we are.

We are never going to understand the Oneness of God how he can be One God, yet manifest himself in different manners.

Is the Father God, YES
Is the Son God, YES
Is the Holy Spirit God, YES
But this does not mean a trinity of Persons, but one single person able to assume three different positions or roles as he sees fit.

Let me give you a poor example, but somewhat similar
I am a Father
I am a Son
I am a husband
am I three different persons? I hope not.

There are times when I have to assume authority as a Father
There are times when I have to be under authority as a son
There are times when I have to share authority as a husband

[J.A. Perez]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

How can Jesus be the Father and Jesus be the Son?

It is a Paradox, that is incomprehensible to us humans, for our understanding of how God works is beyond us.

In order to understand the Oneness of God we need to quit thinking in human terms and instead think in terms of a transcendental God who is able to be much more than what we are.

We are never going to understand the Oneness of God how he can be One God, yet manifest himself in different manners.

Is the Father God, YES
Is the Son God, YES
Is the Holy Spirit God, YES
But this does not mean a trinity of Persons, but one single person able to assume three different positions or roles as he sees fit.

Let me give you a poor example, but somewhat similar
I am a Father
I am a Son
I am a husband
am I three different persons? I hope not.

There are times when I have to assume authority as a Father
There are times when I have to be under authority as a son
There are times when I have to share authority as a husband

Yes Sir,

Matthew 16:17
It is very clear to those that have received a revelation.

Jeremiah 29:13
But it only comes to those who have not closed up their eyes to see and their ears to hear. But to those that seek to know Him.