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  #431  
Old 08-15-2017, 06:34 AM
JoeBandy JoeBandy is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

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Originally Posted by houston View Post
Something that came to mind as I was reading Votive's post is culture.

Just a few decades ago women cropped their hair in rebellion, I mean, liberation. (LOL) That went against Western culture. So why is it acceptable today? For no reason other than the passing of time.
IMO the whole issue is cultural.
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  #432  
Old 08-15-2017, 06:37 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
The word translated "because" is a preposition in Greek, namely dia.

This preposition refers to the channel of the act, or the means by which some "thing" is accomplished. It is therefore often translated as "by" in the KJV, and when this is the case, "by" typically means "through".

In any language, prepositions are designed to help predicate the meaning of the nouns and noun phrases surrounding it. To predicate meaning is "to preach" (In Latin: predicare) the meaning, or to help make sense of what the sentence is about.
So what does dia, in this instance, "preach" to us?

First, before I answer, let me say that I believe Paul's use of the word "angels" or aggelous refers to actual, heavenly angels, and not simply human "messengers". I also don't think Paul is making any reference to so-called "fallen" angels.

Now then, to answer the question. Dia here means on the account of, or for the sake of. So, why would a woman need to have power or exousia on her head or kephale?

Well, what is power/exousia and what does Paul mean by saying this power/exousia needs to be on her "head" or kephale?

Exousia refers not just to power in the sense of might or ability to do some "thing", it also expresses the right and authority to exercise that might in order to be able to do that "thing".

So, that's what is supposed to be on a woman's "head" or kephale. And, in verse 9, Paul's shows clearly that the reason this power/exousia is supposed to be upon her head or kephale is because, Adam was not created for Eve, but rather Eve was created for Adam, and on down the list, of every man and woman created by God.

This being the case, head or kephale, from the phrase "power on her head because of the angels" can in no way be referring to her actual head, as in her noggin, but rather, to her husband as head/kephale over the woman.

Now, note. I underlined "over" on purpose. Here's why:

The "on" from "power on her head" is the Greek preposition epi, and it means "on, over, or above". So, this power or exousia is supposed to not just be "on" her head/kephale in the way we sit on a chair, but rather, this power/exousia is supposed to be over and above her head, because of the angels.

So what power/exousia is supposed to be over and above her husband?

Paul tells us. It's Christ, the head of every man. Christ sits at the right hand of the Father, in His Father's throne. He is surrounded by an innumerable host of angels, including the four living beings or cherubim, as described in Ezekiel and Revelation.

When a woman has long hair, she shows submission to her husband as her "head" or kephale by honoring her husband's "head" or kephale which is Jesus. These angels surrounding Him on His Father's throne belong to Him and are His to command.

By honoring the Lord with long hair, she is honoring the angels that minister before the Lord, and sing His adoration on down through the ages. In Isaiah 6, for example, we read of angels that veil their heads with two of their wings, as they fly through the heavenly temple crying "Holy, Holy, Holy, Is The Lord God Almighty...".

So that's why a woman ought to have power on her head because of the angels. It speaks to her submission and place of helper underneath her husband's authority over her, and to Jesus Christ, her husband's and authority's head and authority.

The woman is not to stand out. She is to be modest, even shame-faced. In the church, she is to keep silence and defer any questions or misunderstandings to her husband's counsel and wisdom. She keeps and guides the house. I'm sure you know and believe these verses. But what of the man? He is to remain uncovered, because he's the image and glory of God. It is his job to reflect to the world the divine order of things. He does so symbolically by keeping his hair short.

In the ancient world, it was the men, and not the women, who sat in the gates. Look, for example, to Proverbs 31. The woman hustles and bustles about to keep her home in order, and if she does so, she will have praise in the gates. Why? Because that's where her husband sits with the other men, and there, he can brag on his wife to the other men, and the other men can see how blessed he is to have such a wife.

It is the established order, specifically designed by God, maintained in the world by all who fear God, and it will never change. Men and women are not equals, apart from salvation. Men have God-given abilities and responsibilities that far outweigh those of a woman's. Men are typically stronger in body. They are typically taller, faster, more durable, need a higher in-take of calories, and on the list it goes.

In Deuteronomy 22:5, a famous and infamous passage of Scripture (but tangentially related to this topic), the items which pertain to a man that that verse is talking about, isn't about simply clothing. It's about "gear" or an apparatus, typically translated elsewhere as "armor", but also sometimes translated as "tool" and "weapon".

The point is, men have roles in the public and private life in the world that women don't have, and that's okay. It's the same for woman, both in public and in private. That's okay, too. Well, one of the roles that God gives to a woman is to be in subjection to her husband, and not only to him, but also to Him, that is, her husband's "head", even Jesus of Nazareth.

Angels are all around us, and are with us wherever we go, and in whatever we do, as long as it's Godly. They are given as ministers to the heirs of salvation, but they are not ours to control. They belong to Jesus. And as agents of His holiness, reflecting His glory and splendor, when they are involved in the church, when the saints meet and pray and prophesy, they are to be respected and honored. When saints meet and everything is in proper order, when spiritual decorum is maintained, and the head of every man is honored and respected, the angels present in that meeting are allowed to freely participate under Christ's guidance and command.

But when things are disordered, hectic, chaotic, divisive, when men and women are disobedient to the Lord they profess to love and serve, when they get together, Christ isn't honored and respected, no matter how much they may otherwise claim, and in this way, Christ's angels are restricted from participating, until flesh is crucified, humility and repentance are sought, and a renewing of the otherwise carnal mind is achieved.

Therefore, the woman's long hair doesn't give her any power or authority at all. Instead, or rather, it is a token of her submission (that is, her very lack of power or authority), to her husband and her husband's head. It's a way of showing the world she is under the power and authority God gave in this life, to be over her.
I agree with about 90% of this. Excellent post by the way.

Where we disagree is that I believe that Paul was applying the this concept to an actual covering. He could have begun by saying hair immediately, but he didn't. Paul only mentions hair in a supplemental polemic saying, "Doth not even nature teach you..." In other words, Paul was drawing from nature an argument to support the fact that a woman should be veiled.

If we had a time machine, we could go backwards in time with any Apostolic woman. And regardless as to if her hair was cut or not, as long as it was considered "long", she'd be viewed as a shameful and immodest thing if she wasn't wearing her veil. In Paul's day a woman wore this article of modesty, demonstrating that she honors her head (her husband) and that she is submitted to him as such.

Because it reads as follows:
I Corinthians 11:3-15
3 But I would have you know, that the (authority) of every man is Christ; and the (authority) of the woman is the man; and the (authority) of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head (veiled), dishonoureth his (authority, i.e. Christ).
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head (unveiled) dishonoureth her (husband): for that is even all one as if she were shaven (a shameful state of a woman shamed publically for immorality).
6 For if the woman be not (veiled), let her also be shorn (a form of public humiliation for immodest and unfaithful women): but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be (veiled).
7 For a man indeed ought not to (veil) his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her (husband) because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God (unveiled) ?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a (veil).
Paul's point is that a woman honors her husband and recognizes his authority when she wears her veil and is adorned with modesty. Don't believe him? Doesn't even nature teach us that long hair on a man is a shameful thing? But if a woman has long hair, it adorns her in beauty, and so, even nature illustrates that she should be covered.

It's about modesty and submission to the authority of the husband, so that the proper order can be born out in the natural as you eloquently explained.

Now, we can exchange any form of immodesty and it would read the same. For example, "low cut blouses"...
"But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with (a low cut blouse) dishonoureth her (husband):"
It's about correcting women who were looking like loose women by being unveiled in gatherings (something only proper at home) and thereby dishonoring their husbands publically and showing contempt for his authority over them in their refusal to wear their veils. They were taking their "freedom in Christ" too far.

It's not even about hair. Hair was only a supplemental example offered to support the man point which was that a woman should be veiled. It is about women honoring their husbands, and showing their submission to their husband's authority, through public modesty. And this is what the angels see. It isn't about hair.


Last edited by Aquila; 08-15-2017 at 07:05 AM.
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  #433  
Old 08-15-2017, 06:49 AM
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

1 Timothy 5:21,

I charge thee before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, and the elect angels, that thou observe these things without preferring one before another, doing nothing by partiality.

Here, Paul commanded Timothy to do some things, and this command was given to Timothy by Paul, not only before or in the presence of God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, but also before or in the presence of God's elect angels, thus showing that angels are heavily involved in the church, in and among the ministry, and have a role to play in the giving and fulfilling of apostolic commandments as recorded in the Holy Scriptures.

To disobey these charges, as given by Paul or other Apostles, is to not only dismiss them in front of God, or in front of the Lord Jesus Christ, but to also disobey and dismiss these charges in front of God's elect angels. And that's a big deal.

But why? Because the Father's holy angels are in heaven and they always behold His face, even as they are assigned to the "little ones" who believe in Jesus, that is, the humble and meek men and women who have become like children in order to receive the Kingdom of God.

Offending these angels is a serious issue. In the passage of Scripture in which Jesus talks about these angels always beholding the face of His Father in Heaven, He is talking about offenses, and how it would be better for the one offending to tie a millstone around his neck and cast himself into the sea, and He says this BECAUSE these holy angels behold His Father's face.

So risking damnation by offending a sincere, humble believer in Christ not only hurts and offends that believer, it also messes with their angels. Jesus doesn't give any other details, of how that actually plays out in the real world, but He does make it pretty clear it's a big no-no.

(See Matthew 18:1-10).
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Last edited by votivesoul; 08-15-2017 at 06:51 AM.
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  #434  
Old 08-15-2017, 07:07 AM
n david n david is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

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And uncut hair is witchcraft,
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  #435  
Old 08-15-2017, 07:40 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

n david,

The notion of uncut hair reflecting witchcraft goes way back. In 1633, Bessie Skebister was accused and convicted in Scotland of causing her neighbor, Margaret Mudie, to become sick by shaking her uncut hair at her (Cooper 197). Even amongst heathen cultures in India and Mexico, as the Catholic church advanced, witches were identified by their uncut hair and were shorn as part of their prosecution. As far back as the ancient Aztecs, tribes would crop the hair of a captured witch, thereby taking from them “all their power of sorcery and enchantment.” (Frazer 486)

Even the origins of the story, "Rapunzel", going well back before the 1600's and reflecting elements of the 11th century Persian tale, "Rudāba", which has much symbolic and occult meanings relating to witchcraft.

In fact, witches (pagans practicing witchcraft) were known to let their uncut hair down and shake it as part of their rituals and to invoke power. Christian women covered their hair (cut or uncut) as a sign of submission and modesty.

Paul would have women submit and cover their hair in modesty. Satan would have them grow it uncut, uncovered, and promise them supernatural honor and power over familiar spirits (which many mistaken for being angels today).

It's clearly an issue of modesty and submission in attire (namely the veil), not hair.


Last edited by Aquila; 08-15-2017 at 07:58 AM.
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  #436  
Old 08-15-2017, 08:53 AM
houston houston is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

I was trying to find the symposium papers by Seagraves and Bernard. The links are dead. Anyway...

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...ad.php?t=29063
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  #437  
Old 08-15-2017, 08:53 AM
houston houston is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

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I did the exact same thing. Lol
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  #438  
Old 08-15-2017, 09:27 AM
Aquila Aquila is offline
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

The point is, dating all the way back into antiquity many pagan cultures and their "witches" typically valued uncut hair. Not only did they place great value on uncut hair, but they also attributed spiritual powers to their hair. They were also easily identified by their hair. They also would wear their hair down and uncovered as part of ritual and in order to be identified.

Thus the two (uncut hair and holy magic hair) are linked to witchcraft.

Paul wasn't even talking about hair. In fact, Paul was discussing submission to headship, honoring one's husband through the modesty of wearing the veil.
I Corinthians 11:3-15
3 But I would have you know, that the (authority) of every man is Christ; and the (authority) of the woman is the man; and the (authority) of Christ is God.
4 Every man praying or prophesying, having his head (veiled), dishonoureth his (authority, i.e. Christ).
5 But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head (unveiled) dishonoureth her (husband): for that is even all one as if she were shaven (a shameful state of a woman shamed publically for immorality).
6 For if the woman be not (veiled), let her also be shorn (a form of public humiliation for immodest and unfaithful women): but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be (veiled).
7 For a man indeed ought not to (veil) his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.
8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man.
9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her (husband) because of the angels.
11 Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord.
12 For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God.
13 Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God (unveiled) ?
14 Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him?
15 But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a (veil).
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  #439  
Old 08-15-2017, 10:34 AM
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

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Originally Posted by votivesoul View Post
Therefore, the woman's long hair doesn't give her any power or authority at all. Instead, or rather, it is a token of her submission (that is, her very lack of power or authority), to her husband and her husband's head. It's a way of showing the world she is under the power and authority God gave in this life, to be over her.
I agree that a woman's long hair doesn't give her any power or authority at all. I do agree that, according to the Bible, a woman's long hair is a sign. I think that when you take this sign and twist it into uncut hair=a woman has power and control, you have a big problem.

To reiterate-the Bible never says a woman's uncut hair will give her power and control. That is what my original post says. It never says a lot of the things I am accused of saying.
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Old 08-15-2017, 10:36 AM
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Re: Submission? Or Power and Control?

[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aquila View Post
I agree with about 90% of this. Excellent post by the way.
Me too. I thought it was quite good.
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