Does Everyone Live Forever? - Page 20

TGBTG · #**191** 07-25-2019, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

Don't you see how this impugns God's righteousness?

You have God, who is love, mercilessly, endlessly, intentionally, beyond all bounds and limitations of control, causing unceasing torture for eternity.

Even a lifetime of heinous sin only merits an equal judgment or verdict rendered against it. The punishment fits the crime. That is clear all throughout the Bible. Not all crimes or sins were of a capital offense nature. Jesus remarked about those ignorant of God's will who will receive less of a whipping than the ones who were cognizant of God's will.

And yet, in the resurrection of the unjust, God loses His mind and decides He is going to make sinners suffer for as long as He exists? Think about that for a moment.

For the rest of God's existence, the sinners will be in constant, unending, equal to God's own eternity, torment.

You have God never relenting of His wrath or vengeance, for as long as He lives. Destroying sinners who have been judged and found wanting isn't enough. He also has to make them pay with interest, a debt they could never pay for in the first place (Jesus paid it all???) for the rest of His existence, just to prove a point.

So how long do you think they will be tormented for?

votivesoul · #**192** 07-25-2019, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TGBTG

So how long do you think they will be tormented for?

It's rather immaterial in a certain sense, since I have no idea, and can't give you Book, Chapter, Verse.

But, generally speaking, I would offer the following supposition:

As long as it takes for their punishment to be meted out. Some receive many stripes, as it were, some receive few. I submit this suggests a degree of severity based on how much or little a person knew of the Lord Jesus and the Gospel.

For example: regarding Lazarus and the Rich Man. One argues it's just a parable. Another says it was a real story. In truth, it doesn't matter either way.

While the rich man was in torments, his punishment was still being exacted. When it was filled up (See Matthew 23:32), he would die the second death and be no more. Prior to that, he was experiencing conscious torment. He was, as it were, receiving his "stripes" until he died eternally.

Apostolic1ness · #**193** 07-26-2019, 06:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by votivesoul

It's rather immaterial in a certain sense, since I have no idea, and can't give you Book, Chapter, Verse.

But, generally speaking, I would offer the following supposition:

As long as it takes for their punishment to be meted out. Some receive many stripes, as it were, some receive few. I submit this suggests a degree of severity based on how much or little a person knew of the Lord Jesus and the Gospel.

For example: regarding Lazarus and the Rich Man. One argues it's just a parable. Another says it was a real story. In truth, it doesn't matter either way.

While the rich man was in torments, his punishment was still being exacted. When it was filled up (See Matthew 23:32), he would die the second death and be no more. Prior to that, he was experiencing conscious torment. He was, as it were, receiving his "stripes" until he died eternally.

It appears to me that the rich man was experiencing the second death according to Revelation 21:8. He was in the Fire.

Carl · #**194** 07-26-2019, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Apostolic1ness

It appears to me that the rich man was experiencing the second death according to Revelation 21:8. He was in the Fire.

Then why would he ask Lazarus to go tell his brothers about it? Would they not also be there?

mfblume · #**195** 07-26-2019, 10:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl

Then why would he ask Lazarus to go tell his brothers about it? Would they not also be there?

They were still alive.

Apostolic1ness · #**196** 07-26-2019, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carl

Then why would he ask Lazarus to go tell his brothers about it? Would they not also be there?

Yes your right, I didnt think of that.

Parable it is unless we believe the soul of man meets it's reward upon death.

mfblume · #**197** 07-26-2019, 06:06 PM

It is a parable but it's not using a mythical picture of suffering in fire. It's a real kind of scenario. But it's not teaching about hell. it's teaching about the Pharisees and how they are like the rich man who fared sumptuously on esteem of men. But God looked away from him. That's why it says the brothers were still alive. It's not Revelation 20 at all.

mfblume · #**198** 07-26-2019, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

It is a parable but it's not using a mythical picture of suffering in fire. It's a real kind of scenario. But it's not teaching about hell. it's teaching about the Pharisees and how they are like the rich man who fared sumptuously on esteem of men. But God looked away from him. That's why it says the brothers were still alive. It's not Revelation 20 at all.

https://mikeblume.com/richman.htm

Esaias · #**199** 07-26-2019, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TulsaDavid

The discussion is about annihilation of the wicked, their being obliterated into absolute nothingness. Quite moot at that point, don't you think.
Not at all, but it would be exponentially far less punishment, if indeed the torment would eventually cease, as if the annihilation tale really could trump Rev 14:11.

Punishment for sin is whatever God says it is, not what you or I or anyone feels is "equitable". And God NOWHERE says sinners will inherit eternal life in hell or anywhere else. He DOES however say the wages of sin is death, and that the wicked will be no more.

You feel it would be "not enough" is sinners were actually destroyed, if they actually perished, if they were actually paid the wages of sin (death). Almost as if such a thing were too...merciful?... or something. Honestly you come across as someone who actually relishes the idea of UNENDING CEASELESS ETERNAL PAIN AND SUFFERING for everyone you think deserves it. But God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked (Ez 33:11). Seems as if your thoughts are not His thoughts, neither are your ways His ways. You WANT people to suffer. Destruction is "too nice", it sounds as if sinners might get away with something, in your estimation.

But again, you aren't God, nor is truth determined by what any of us think or feel. It is what the WORD says. And the Word says the two options are happiness and immortality with God, or SORROW AND DEATH. The options are not immortality with God vs immortality somewhere apart from God. God is life, in Him we live and move and have our being. Our very existence is connected to His presence and His reality. He is EVERWHERE. Yet the wicked shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord (2 Thess 1:9). The word "from" in the Greek there is "apo" and means "away from". The wicked are banished from His presence. Since His presence is EVERYWHERE, they shall be NOWHERE. They shall no longer have their being.

Rev 14:11 doesn't say the wicked last forever. It says the smoke of their torment ascends forever, thus their punishment is ETERNAL. What is tgeir punishment? DEATH. They will suffer age-lasting DEATH, not age lasting life in misery.

Monterrey · #**200** 07-26-2019, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

https://mikeblume.com/richman.htm

I read your thesis on this parable. Interesting.

I wrote one a while back on this, the parables intrigue me.

The parable of the rich man and lazarus is not about hell so much as it is a judgment on the Jews and their religious system that was against the laws of God.

Dont want to hijack this thread on the annihilation of the wicked doctrine.