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08-25-2019, 04:04 AM
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Covenant Apostolic
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 8,765
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ
Quote:
Originally Posted by coksiw
Sister, I agree with that, and I see the difference between the OT and the NT regarding were the believers stand now with Christ.
The point of my argument is that people that believe that the millenial is past, or that we are in the millenial, use the argument that because Christ reigns, Satan is bound as described in Revelation, and there is no Satan activity influencing the unbelievers, or tempting the believers.
That's a wrong reasoning.
For example, the verse you posted. That came from an Apostle. At that same period of time, even before 70 AD, the Apostles, still said things like:
[2Co 2:11 NASB] 11 so that no advantage would be taken of us by Satan, for we are not ignorant of his schemes.
[1Pe 5:8 NASB] 8 Be of sober [spirit,] be on the alert. Your adversary, the devil, prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.
[1Ti 5:15 NASB] 15 for some have already turned aside to follow Satan.
[1Co 7:5 NASB] 5 Stop depriving one another, except by agreement for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer, and come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
The reign of Christ started before 70 AD, as the Apostles testified according to your own verse, yet they also said Satan is still working on this world: therefore, all the reasoning that Christ can't reign unless Satan is bound as in Revelation is wrong doctrine, and different than what the Apostles taught.
Sister, I think you got it, but I'm just trying to clarify what has been developing already on this thread.
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Brother, In Acts 2, the disciples witnessed Jesus ascended into the heavens and they testified that He fulfilled the prophecy of being seated on the throne of David, Jesus being in authority above all powers and dominions in this world and the one to come ( Ephesians 1).
What you see in the book of Acts is the disciples being filled with the Holy Ghost and going forth with signs and wonders and conquering the world with the gospel. The weapons of their warfare being mighty to the pulling down of strongholds because being seated with Christ they had the authority and ability of Christ.
I don't know what the Apostles called their school of eschatology, but I don't think they were waiting for a future dispensation to rule and reign with Christ but believed they were to go forth and conquer with the gospel now.
To use an old testament example, God gave Israel the promised land, he told them to go forth and conquer it, but they had to act in faith and do it.
Quote:
Hebrews
3..Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession; 2..[a]He was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was in all His house. 3..For He has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, by just so much as the builder of the house has more honor than the house. 4..For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. 5..Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; 6..but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house—whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end.
Quote:
7..Therefore, just as the Holy Spirit says,
“Today if you hear His voice,
8..Do not harden your hearts as [b]when they provoked Me,
As in the day of trial in the wilderness,
9..Where your fathers tried Me by testing Me,
And saw My works for forty years.
10..“Therefore I was angry with this generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they did not know My ways’;
11..As I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’”
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12..Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart [c]that falls away from the living God. 13..But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14..For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 15..while it is said,
“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts, as [d]when they provoked Me.”
16..For who provoked Him when they had heard? Indeed, did not all those who came out of Egypt led by Moses? 17..And with whom was He angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the wilderness? 18..And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who were disobedient? 19..So we see that they were not able to enter because of unbelief.
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As Brother Esaias stated:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
From an older thread:
. . . So it is time we start looking into just what exactly is involved in the authority we have been given as kings and priests, HERE AND NOW, and begin to act accordingly. The Millennium will work itself out, but we need to work out the salvation we have been given, that is to say, we need to begin to manifest the salvation God has made available for us so the nations will see and hear and submit to God.
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Last edited by Amanah; 08-25-2019 at 04:49 AM.
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08-25-2019, 09:11 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Apr 2019
Posts: 645
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ
Quote:
Originally Posted by Esaias
Jesus is King over Israel ( Luke 1:32-33), and over all the earth ( Matthew 28:18). The earth is unfortunately in rebellion, but Christ is in the process of subduing His enemies. He has defeated them already in a spiritual and typological sense, but is in the process of manifesting His victory over them in the "here and now". The church's mandate is to herald His victory and reign to every nation and teach them to submit to His divine law-word.
Dispensationalism in particular, and futurism in general, detracts from the reality of His present reign. According to them He is King now only in a religious sense, a sort of poetic license. He will not ACTUALLY have dominion until the Second Coming ("And we will crown Him, crown Him, crown Him... Lord of all'").
Maybe I'm not finding the right words to clearly express what I have observed over the years. But to put it bluntly, dispensationalists and most futurists do not seem, to me, to fully grasp the enormity of the truth that Jesus is actually - right now - the genuine LEGAL reigning monarch of not only the tribes of Israel but of the whole planet. He is LITERALLY just as genuinely a Lawful monarch as the Queen of England ever could be. More so, even.
This lack of grasping the truth concerning His reign manifests in a general surrender of the public sphere to the rebellious forces of satanic anarchy, because "It will get worse and worse and then the end shall come. But it will be better by and by. It's Bible prophecy." Further, such Christians seem incapable of responding to social issues in any effective way. I believe it is because they are sadly ignorant of the kingship of Christ as it is NOW.
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This is good Isaias, I just want to add, that what we don't seem to realize is the kind of kingdom that Christ came to set up. We as people seem to think that God must rule all people to a point that no one does any thing wrong. But that is not the way God has ever worked.
We don't question that God was all powerful all knowing and all seeing in the old testament. Yet we want the kingdom of God to control the emotions of everyone today or God must not be on the throne?
What we must understand is that the whole purpose of Christ coming was not to change the world into an utopia, but to come make salvation available to everyone not just to the Jew but the world. In doing so, he set up the kingdom of God to the world.
But Christ never came as a dictator, and never shall be. His very ministry should show us that. His kingdom gives us power over satan and as children of God we are kings and priest in a spiritual sense but we will never be in a physical sense. That is not what the kingdom of God is about.
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08-25-2019, 11:00 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,649
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ
Quote:
What you see in the book of Acts is the disciples being filled with the Holy Ghost and going forth with signs and wonders and conquering the world with the gospel. The weapons of their warfare being mighty to the pulling down of strongholds because being seated with Christ they had the authority and ability of Christ.
I don't know what the Apostles called their school of eschatology, but I don't think they were waiting for a future dispensation to rule and reign with Christ but believed they were to go forth and conquer with the gospel now.
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If we see the Apostles or "Apostolic Faith" as examples of this doctrine it looks as if they failed big time. All of them were killed by the world except John. They never caused any nation to become entirely righteous.
Rome put them to death daily. Imperial Rome held the political power until Constantine came along. The Catholics point to that as the dawn of the golden age of Christianity while Apostolics lament it as a terrible travesty.
Apostle Paul turned the world upside down in a sense. Many were brought into the Church. Its true some towns became predominately Christian. A few years later he told Timothy, "all Asia be turned away from me".
So in this supposed "kingdom view" of things if the Apostles of Jesus failed what would that say for the following generations including ours?
But the Apostles did NOT fail. They did what Jesus commanded. Then as he prophesied they were hated by all men. They saved a called out people from many nations. They revealed Jesus as being alive. They establish New Covenant Churches with the pure doctrine of Christ.
The doctrine that we will win the world to Christ before Jesus returns in glory is one of the weaker doctrines I have heard of.
It puts the cart before the horse.
Ephesians 1:13-14
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
It takes what Paul describes as the "earnest" of our inheritance and makes it become the whole.
Part of our inheritance is to rule the nations. We get the Holy Spirit IN THIS LIFE to help us to be overcomers so that at the time of Christs coming we will have matured to where we will rule nations.
Rev. 2:26-29
26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
The ruling of the nations according to Jesus was a future thing.
Paul his servant brought it out exactly the same.
1 Cor. 6:1-3
1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
So we are given a portion of the Spirit in this life sufficient to help us overcome the world. As far as taking it over with Christs love and truth consider this.
Jesus was the Son of God. He was the forerunner and chief Apostle. John said all the worlds books could not contain the things he did.
Did he win his generation? How many of his disciples stayed true? Was Israel delivered from Rome and then walk in his truth? Were the Romans saved?
Jesus is our EXAMPLE of the great overcomer.
In the natural side it looked like he was defeated.
Yet Gods ways are not our ways. He actually got the greatest victory of all.
HE DID THE WILL OF GOD.
That will be our great victory until Jesus returns. Doing the will of God.
Biblically speaking it looks like it will take Jesus coming with the holy angels to defeat the wicked nations and peoples of this world.
Something yet future.
2 Thess 2:1-10
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 08-25-2019 at 11:30 AM.
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08-25-2019, 02:25 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
If we see the Apostles or "Apostolic Faith" as examples of this doctrine it looks as if they failed big time. All of them were killed by the world except John. They never caused any nation to become entirely righteous.
Rome put them to death daily. Imperial Rome held the political power until Constantine came along. The Catholics point to that as the dawn of the golden age of Christianity while Apostolics lament it as a terrible travesty.
Apostle Paul turned the world upside down in a sense. Many were brought into the Church. Its true some towns became predominately Christian. A few years later he told Timothy, "all Asia be turned away from me".
So in this supposed "kingdom view" of things if the Apostles of Jesus failed what would that say for the following generations including ours?
But the Apostles did NOT fail. They did what Jesus commanded. Then as he prophesied they were hated by all men. They saved a called out people from many nations. They revealed Jesus as being alive. They establish New Covenant Churches with the pure doctrine of Christ.
The doctrine that we will win the world to Christ before Jesus returns in glory is one of the weaker doctrines I have heard of.
It puts the cart before the horse.
Ephesians 1:13-14
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, 14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
It takes what Paul describes as the "earnest" of our inheritance and makes it become the whole.
Part of our inheritance is to rule the nations. We get the Holy Spirit IN THIS LIFE to help us to be overcomers so that at the time of Christs coming we will have matured to where we will rule nations.
Rev. 2:26-29
26And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: 27And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father. 28And I will give him the morning star. 29He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
The ruling of the nations according to Jesus was a future thing.
Paul his servant brought it out exactly the same.
1 Cor. 6:1-3
1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
So we are given a portion of the Spirit in this life sufficient to help us overcome the world. As far as taking it over with Christs love and truth consider this.
Jesus was the Son of God. He was the forerunner and chief Apostle. John said all the worlds books could not contain the things he did.
Did he win his generation? How many of his disciples stayed true? Was Israel delivered from Rome and then walk in his truth? Were the Romans saved?
Jesus is our EXAMPLE of the great overcomer.
In the natural side it looked like he was defeated.
Yet Gods ways are not our ways. He actually got the greatest victory of all.
HE DID THE WILL OF GOD.
That will be our great victory until Jesus returns. Doing the will of God.
Biblically speaking it looks like it will take Jesus coming with the holy angels to defeat the wicked nations and peoples of this world.
Something yet future.
2 Thess 2:1-10
7And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, 8In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: 9Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; 10When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
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That is not the point of the kingdom message for his dominion on the here and now. The point is he rules until enemies are under his feet, and that rulership has been occurring for two thousand years already. He rules in the midst of his enemies. It's not a Carnally conquering dominion like nations turning around. It's spiritual and ruling in the midst of his enemies. If you understand that then you see the present kingdom's true message. More people are in the body of Christ now than any time in history. It's growing, but not physically. His coming will see that happen in a split moment materially.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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08-25-2019, 03:12 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Kentucky
Posts: 14,649
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ
Quote:
That is not the point of the kingdom message for his dominion on the here and now. The point is he rules until enemies are under his feet, and that rulership has been occurring for two thousand years already. He rules in the midst of his enemies. It's not a Carnally conquering dominion like nations turning around. It's spiritual and ruling in the midst of his enemies.
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I see no difference in that than any normal end time message. I have always taught that.
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08-25-2019, 04:22 PM
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Jesus is the only Lord God
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Join Date: Aug 2010
Posts: 2,565
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
That is not the point of the kingdom message for his dominion on the here and now. The point is he rules until enemies are under his feet, and that rulership has been occurring for two thousand years already. He rules in the midst of his enemies. It's not a Carnally conquering dominion like nations turning around. It's spiritual and ruling in the midst of his enemies. If you understand that then you see the present kingdom's true message. More people are in the body of Christ now than any time in history. It's growing, but not physically. His coming will see that happen in a split moment materially.
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This is different from the kingdom reign Esaias is talking about.
__________________
...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
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08-25-2019, 04:30 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple
I see no difference in that than any normal end time message. I have always taught that.
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The difference is whether Jesus is now in any throne He'll ever be on, or not, and if Israel Shall be restored as a power heading that kingdom up or not.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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08-25-2019, 04:30 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TGBTG
This is different from the kingdom reign Esaias is talking about.
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I'm not historicist as he is.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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08-25-2019, 04:52 PM
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Covenant Apostolic
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Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sebastian, FL
Posts: 8,765
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Re: The Present reign of Jesus Christ
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
I'm not historicist as he is.
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It's the difference between historicism and partial preterism; but also an interest in promoting moral law along with spiritual renewal
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08-25-2019, 07:18 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Portage la Prairie, MB CANADA
Posts: 38,154
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanah
It's the difference between historicism and partial preterism; but also an interest in promoting moral law along with spiritual renewal
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Not catching your point.
__________________
...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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