Apostolic Friends Forum
Tab Menu 1
Go Back   Apostolic Friends Forum > The Fellowship Hall > Fellowship Hall
Facebook

Notices

Fellowship Hall The place to go for Fellowship & Fun!


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #251  
Old 04-15-2019, 01:52 AM
Scott Pitta's Avatar
Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Wisconsin Dells
Posts: 2,343
Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

Each and every Bible manuscript, Hebrew or Greek, has unique readings and spellings. No two or three manuscripts are identical. No group of manuscripts are identical. They all read a little different from each other.

People like Kurt and Barbara Aland (for example) compile one text by editing all the manuscripts available.

Translators use this text to translate from.

How one edits all those different manuscripts into one edition or book is what all the fuss is all about.

I can read actual Greek manuscripts, but if they are really old, it is a pain in the neck. It is far easier to read a Greek passage online.

The differences do not cause me to question my faith in God. They are an intellectual curiosity.
Reply With Quote
  #252  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:29 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 928
Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
Each and every Bible manuscript, Hebrew or Greek, has unique readings and spellings. No two or three manuscripts are identical. ... People like Kurt and Barbara Aland (for example) compile one text by editing all the manuscripts available.
Do you realize that they consciously, deliberately and absurdly ignore 95%+ of the Greek manuscripts?

And attempt to mask the huge majority Byzantine ms supports in the apparatus as well, using a variety of tricks.

So what is the point of "editing all manuscripts"?

Try to answer to point, instead of giving short redundant non-helpful posts.

================

You similarly avoided responding to my post asking you what is the pure word of God. If you do not really know, on the variants mentioned, including the 24 verses of the Mark ending that have the resurrection appearances oft he Lord Jesus and the ascension and the signs following, and the Pericope Adulterae, you should have the integrity to say "I dunno".

================

Thanks!

Last edited by Steven Avery; 04-15-2019 at 10:35 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #253  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:31 AM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 928
Re: reading scripture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehud View Post
Thank you for the response, Mr. Avery!
Most welcome.

Your tendency towards sincere and real questions, trying to learn more, is refreshing and has been noted.
Reply With Quote
  #254  
Old 04-15-2019, 03:11 PM
Ehud Ehud is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Posts: 341
Re: reading scripture

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Most welcome.

Your tendency towards sincere and real questions, trying to learn more, is refreshing and has been noted.
Thank you; I appreciate that.

I know my posting style is probably rather odd, and I don’t mean to hit and run, but there is so much information provided, it takes me a great deal of time to sift thru it all. I also readily admit there are a great many issues I didn’t even know were issues, so I truly do appreciate everyone’s patience with me.
Reply With Quote
  #255  
Old 04-15-2019, 04:04 PM
Scott Pitta's Avatar
Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Wisconsin Dells
Posts: 2,343
Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

No one ignores 95% of all Greek manuscripts.

All editions of the Greek New Testament "edit manuscripts". They cannot include every variant reading. Decisions on what is and what is not included are made by the editor or editorial committee. A text s a combination of readings found in the manuscripts.

Some texts, like the one done by Kurt and Barbara Aland, focus on earlier manuscripts at the expense of manuscripts produced much later. As a rule, the earlier the manuscript, the better. It is not a perfect rule. But it has stood the test of time.

I sometimes think it would be better to simply translate from a given manuscript instead of combining them together. I prefer to download an image of paper 45 and translate it. But that is my preference.

There are not 2 groups of manuscripts. The good and the bad. Each manuscript is unique and complex. Some individual manuscripts have readings that are from different text types.

No editor of a Greek NT uses tricks in their apparatus.

I do not have a preferred text type. Nor are text types so distinct from each other as rhetoric would suggest.
Reply With Quote
  #256  
Old 04-15-2019, 05:20 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 928
Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
No one ignores 95% of all Greek manuscripts..... Some texts, like the one done by Kurt and Barbara Aland, focus on earlier manuscripts at the expense of manuscripts produced much later.
Which ends up de facto ignoring and hiding 95%+ of the manuscripts.

The apparatus trickery is documented here:

PureBibleForum
apparatus rigging
http://www.purebibleforum.com/showth...aratus-rigging

To give one of many quotes:

Frederik Wisse:

Quote:
"Aland also is not interested in the Byzantine text as such, but only in MSS which significantly diverge from the Byzantine text."
"not interested in the Byzantine text" means ignoring the mass of Greek mss.

Leslie McFall (1944-2015):

Quote:
The voice of the majority text has been effectively silenced, misrepresented, or marginalised in modern critical apparatuses, which does a disservice to textual studies, where all the evidence should be adequately presented to the reader to consider,
And I found I had to document this in one spot because there are so many slightly and lightly informed textcrit dupes who do not know the history and the tricks.

=================================

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
No editor of a Greek NT uses tricks in their apparatus.
Clearly a false statement.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
There are not 2 groups of manuscripts. The good and the bad.
Whew. You got one thing right. Even if it is a straw man point on this thread.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 04-15-2019 at 05:38 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #257  
Old 04-15-2019, 05:42 PM
Scott Pitta's Avatar
Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Wisconsin Dells
Posts: 2,343
Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

There is a difference between the Byzantine text type and the majority text.

Most textual critics are interested in earlier manuscripts. It is as simple as that. Or they focus on certain groups, such as family 13. Or they focus on a specific manuscript. What they do not do is conspire against a specific text type. I have read entire books of articles by textual critics who do not even mention the Byzantine text.

There are other issues of greater importance to textual critics.

Last edited by Scott Pitta; 04-15-2019 at 05:54 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #258  
Old 04-15-2019, 10:10 PM
Steven Avery Steven Avery is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 928
more textcrit confusion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
There is a difference between the Byzantine text type and the majority text.
Outside of Revelation, this difference is exceedingly minor. This is because approximately 95% of the manusscripts are Byzantine, so the natural result of a strong Byzantine variant will be that it is a Majority variant as well. Simple Logic 101.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
Most textual critics are interested in earlier manuscripts. It is as simple as that.
Only early Greek mss. And only a couple of specific early Greek mss. When we have wonderful evidences from the early church writers, even Ante-Nicene writers, they simply look for ways to ignore that evidence. A simple example is Acts 8:37.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
Or they focus on certain groups, such as family 13.
This is the Byzantine Majority approach of Wilbur Pickering. It is totally rejected by Aland and other critical corruption text purveyors for whom you shill.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Pitta View Post
Or they focus on a specific manuscript. What they do not do is conspire against a specific text type. I have read entire books of articles by textual critics who do not even mention the Byzantine text.
Thanks, \which is supporting that they do in fact conspire against the Byzantine text. As I demonstrated in the last post and the url to the post "apparatus rigging." So I will conjecture that you forgot to give those writings even your less-than-seven minutes of consideration.

As usual, you do respond to the salient questions. Tacky.

Last edited by Steven Avery; 04-15-2019 at 10:13 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #259  
Old 04-16-2019, 05:59 AM
Evang.Benincasa's Avatar
Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
Registered Member


 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 32,322
Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Which ends up de facto ignoring and hiding 95%+ of the manuscripts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steven Avery View Post
Outside of Revelation, this difference is exceedingly minor. This is because approximately 95% of the manuscripts are Byzantine, so the natural result of a strong Byzantine variant will be that it is a Majority variant as well. Simple Logic 101.

Only early Greek mss. And only a couple of specific early Greek mss. When we have wonderful evidences from the early church writers, even Ante-Nicene writers, they simply look for ways to ignore that evidence. A simple example is Acts 8:37.
__________________
ALL pastors are hindrances and one should never have a pastor they will only abuse you and you will get hurt. Instead get your instructions from forum gurus that have never built a church.~Steve Epley.
Reply With Quote
  #260  
Old 04-16-2019, 07:09 AM
Scott Pitta's Avatar
Scott Pitta Scott Pitta is online now
Registered Member


 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Wisconsin Dells
Posts: 2,343
Re: Which translation do you enjoy?

So if while reading, I find a variant reading, I am going to see which manuscripts had it and which ones did not. Am I going to check 1,000 manuscripts ?? Nope.

I'm looking for early manuscripts that have the passage in question. I am looking at manuscripts I am familiar with. I take note of what manuscripts do not have it.

I do not focus on text types. I never consider composite texts or statistic numbers (majority text).
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Do You Preach From Another Translation? Scott Hutchinson Fellowship Hall 20 03-10-2007 11:54 PM

 
User Infomation
Your Avatar

Latest Threads
- by aegsm76
- by n david

Help Support AFF!

Advertisement




All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:12 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.