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07-10-2010, 02:09 PM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJPFSNu_QNs
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Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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07-10-2010, 02:11 PM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Ok, first of all I am a little bugged by something. The UPCI website does not publish the articles of faith. Yet, for doctrines of the UPCI, they publish a bunch of lame tracts..TRACTS! In one place I read that we (the UPCI) don't believe in creeds and articles of faith. That seems to be a contradiction itself. Why not publish the AOF on the website?
Well, that led me to this, pointed out by an anti-Oneness Trinitarian. He was making an issue of Oneness saying sins are forgiven by water baptism. I quoted the AOF saying sins are forgiven by faith when we repent. He quoted David Bernard's booik saying sins are remitted by baptism
"Baptism is important only because God has ordained it to be so. God could have chosen to remit sin without baptism, but in the New Testament church He has chosen to do so at the moment of baptism. Our actions at baptism do not provide salvation or earn it from God; God alone remits sins based on Christ's atoning death. When we submit to water baptism according to God's plan, God honors our obedient faith and remits our sin. "
"The New Birth" by David Bernard, chap. 6 entitled "Water Baptism"
What do you all think on this?
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Which backs up my contention that no oneness person can truly say your lost if you haven't spoken in tonuges, because their own literature shows that at the very latest point forgiveness of sins happens at water baptism.
I believe it happens earlier than that, namely at the time of genuine faith/repentance.
Strangely in DKB book "The Message of Romans" he teaches that one is justified by faith, but of course he insterts a note at the end of the dialouge that the DEFINITION of saving faith=repentance, water baptism in JN, and HG with evidence of other tongues. Strange, when I read Romans 4, I never got that.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
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07-10-2010, 02:11 PM
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
lol..yes always. But still, why the contradiction with the stuff Bernard writes on remission?
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He's of the "other party" in many ways, but I don't think he really has any problem with the older AOF either. He seems to be really big on "Don't Rock the Boat!"
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07-10-2010, 02:13 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Badejo
Which backs up my contention that no oneness person can truly say your lost if you haven't spoken in tonuges, because their own literature shows that at the very latest point forgiveness of sins happens at water baptism.
I believe it happens earlier than that, namely at the time of genuine faith/repentance.
Strangely in DKB book "The Message of Romans" he teaches that one is justified by faith, but of course he insterts a note at the end of the dialouge that the DEFINITION of saving faith=repentance, water baptism in JN, and HG with evidence of other tongues. Strange, when I read Romans 4, I never got that. |
I think DB would characterize "justification" simply as being positionally right and therefore able to receive forgiveness of sins and Spiritual regeneration
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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07-10-2010, 02:13 PM
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Accepts all friends requests
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,609
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction
Quote:
Originally Posted by edjen01
hey guys if you are gonna start a thread about every doctrinal contradiction found in the UPCI....AFF is going to need bigger servers.  |
No kidding. I spent years trying to bring a lot of divergent thoughts and opinions together. The greatest resistance always came from the "angry" set that demanded everyone follow their newly framed "old paths" and ignore the blatant errors and contradictions.
I can't live like that.
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07-10-2010, 02:14 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,774
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
He's of the "other party" in many ways, but I don't think he really has any problem with the older AOF either. He seems to be really big on "Don't Rock the Boat!"
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Well, that's odd. So what is the official position of the UPCI? The book or the AOF?
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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07-10-2010, 02:15 PM
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Accepts all friends requests
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Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 13,609
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason Badejo
Which backs up my contention that no oneness person can truly say your lost if you haven't spoken in tonuges, because their own literature shows that at the very latest point forgiveness of sins happens at water baptism.
I believe it happens earlier than that, namely at the time of genuine faith/repentance.
Strangely in DKB book "The Message of Romans" he teaches that one is justified by faith, but of course he insterts a note at the end of the dialouge that the DEFINITION of saving faith=repentance, water baptism in JN, and HG with evidence of other tongues. Strange, when I read Romans 4, I never got that. |
Read the AOF and you won't quite get that either.
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07-10-2010, 02:17 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 1,451
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Ok, first of all I am a little bugged by something. The UPCI website does not publish the articles of faith. Yet, for doctrines of the UPCI, they publish a bunch of lame tracts..TRACTS! In one place I read that we (the UPCI) don't believe in creeds and articles of faith. That seems to be a contradiction itself. Why not publish the AOF on the website?
Well, that led me to this, pointed out by an anti-Oneness Trinitarian. He was making an issue of Oneness saying sins are forgiven by water baptism. I quoted the AOF saying sins are forgiven by faith when we repent. He quoted David Bernard's booik saying sins are remitted by baptism
"Baptism is important only because God has ordained it to be so. God could have chosen to remit sin without baptism, but in the New Testament church He has chosen to do so at the moment of baptism. Our actions at baptism do not provide salvation or earn it from God; God alone remits sins based on Christ's atoning death. When we submit to water baptism according to God's plan, God honors our obedient faith and remits our sin. "
"The New Birth" by David Bernard, chap. 6 entitled "Water Baptism"
What do you all think on this?
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Bernard is right and the other I have no idea... LOL!
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07-10-2010, 02:17 PM
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Saved by Grace
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Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Decatur, TX
Posts: 5,247
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction
Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
I think DB would characterize "justification" simply as being positionally right and therefore able to receive forgiveness of sins and Spiritual regeneration
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I don't know about that one prax, I think hes speaking out of both sides of his mouth, depending on the subject. I may post some quotes later, right now I don't feel like it. And I like Bernards stuff, I know some people have something against him, but if I'm reading something form a oneness author DKB is my favorite, but I'm just telling it like I've read it.
__________________
"Resolved: That all men should live to the glory of God. Resolved, secondly: That whether or not anyone else does, I will." ~Jonathan Edwards
"The only man who has the right to say he is justified by grace alone is the man who has left all to follow Christ." ~Dietrich Bonheoffer, The Cost of Discipleship
"Preachers who should be fishing for men are now too often fishing for compliments from men." ~Leonard Ravenhill
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07-10-2010, 02:18 PM
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Supercalifragilisticexpiali...
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 19,197
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Re: UPC doctrinal contradiction
Pel, also notice the heading Repentance and Conversion has been changed... you must have an old copy.
Repentance no longer "converts" you...
__________________
"It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
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