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  #61  
Old 06-15-2019, 02:03 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Did you watch my videos?
So I watched two of your videos, Be Perfect in God's Will, parts 1 and 2. I'm still not entirely clear what you believe.

Here is your definition: "Being perfect means having no sin in our lives." But what does that really mean? What happens when you have a sin in your life? Are you lost right then? If not, when? If not one, how many sins would cause you to be lost?

I note that you say nothing about the glorious good news that Jesus Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us and that is why we stand perfect and holy in God's sight--because of our justification--and not because we have managed to perfectly obey God's will. Again, Mike, every day are you loving your neighbor as yourself?

The beautiful truth is that when we are justified we are as righteous in God's eyes as Jesus is. No sin is held against us. That's how we start this journey (and continue it). Then we seek to become in reality what he has already said we are. Yes the goal is sinless perfection, but none of us attain that in this life. Yes our lives should be characterized by obedience, but none of us will be perfectly obedient. But, praise God, one day we will be perfect when the Lord comes again and we are glorified. Until that day, you won't be saved because you have managed to be perfect. You will be saved because Christ's righteousness has been imputed to you as you remain in relationship with him--which is what abiding in his love means, enjoying and being blessed by his love in close relationship with him.

You say, "If we have sin in our lives God will withdraw. This doesn’t mean we’ll be lost, at least not right away perhaps."

I'm not really sure you're being consistent here. You said Jesus doesn't love us when we are not perfect. We have to be perfect to remain in his love. You said God withdraws from us if we are not perfect. So how can we be saved if Jesus doesn't love us and God has withdrawn at those moments when we have, say, failed to love our neighbor as ourselves?

It was disturbing to watch you with such a pleasant look on your face tell everyone Jesus doesn't love them if they have not abided in perfection, that is, sinless perfection. I thought God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. How could he do anything in love for anyone if he only loves those who are perfect? I assume you'll say that this is not what you mean, so, you need to clarify what you mean by you only abide in Jesus's love when you're perfect.

What weakens your presentation, in my opinion, is that you are working within this extreme dichotomy of those who say, "There’s nothing you can do to get closer to God” and we just believe and it doesn't matter how we live, and you who say you must never sin or Jesus won't love you. Those aren't the only options.

Finally, without first rooting your teaching in the truth that our salvation is God's free gift of righteousness that we receive by faith, your view can't help but sound like you're ultimately saving yourself.
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Old 06-15-2019, 03:53 AM
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Esaias Esaias is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
Esaias, have you perfectly done the will of God? Of course not. Have I? Of course not.

Heb 4.15-16: 15 For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The implication is we do at times sin and therefore need to come before the throne of grace that we may find mercy and grace.

1 John 1.8-9: 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

If someone says they never sin, they are mistaken--even deceived.

The goal, of course, is sinless perfection: "My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin." 1 John 2.1

But when we are not in fact perfect, praise God for the Cross: "And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. 1 John 1.1-2
I asked if you could demonstrate from Scripture, but for some reason you lead off with a request for personal anecdotes?

Anyway, Heb 4:15-16 does not say or imply that nobody does or can do the will of God perfectly. It does say that we can get grace from God to help us.

1 John 1:10 is a repetition of the idea of v 8, and simply affirms that only liars deny that all have sinned. Verse 9 contains a promise of not only forgiveness, but cleansing from "all unrighteousness". Which seems to be very plainly a solid declared refutation of the position you seem to be holding.

You say the goal is "sinless perfection". Yet you seem to believe the goal is unattainable. You did not explain why God has given us a goal we cannot attain to, which means He doesn't expect us to attain that goal. Which then means it is a contradiction, because a goal is an expectation. So it seems to me your position has God expecting us to do what He does not in fact expect us to do, because it is impossible and of course He knows all things, so He knows it is impossible.

You say that is the goal, and then say "but when we are not in fact perfect" as if one may in fact be perfect at some time(s). Yet your prior statements seem to indicate you did not believe anyone could be perfect.

I find your position rather... imperfect.
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  #63  
Old 06-15-2019, 09:00 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Originally Posted by Esaias View Post

I find your position rather... imperfect.
I'm truly shocked. We always seem to agree. :-)

So, 1 John 1.10 teaches that only liars deny that all people have sinned . . .
So I'm not a liar since I think all people do sin. 1 John is written to the church. Anything it says here about confession applies to us. So when you sin--even if it be ever so rare--you should confess it.

Regarding my request for a personal anecdote, since you apparently think people can and do live their entire life free from sin--they perfectly love God with their heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves--I am curious who these people are. I thought it would be interesting to first find out if you're one of these perfect ones. If not you, give me some examples. And how do you know they have been perfect? Their own testimony? Your observation of their life? It would seem unusual for it to be possible to live a perfect life at all times, but there be no examples. The only one without sin is the Lord Jesus Christ. He never needed to go to the throne of grace for his sin, because unlike all other human beings, he had no sin.

It makes sense that God would call us to such a lofty goal: we will keep pursuing more of God, never thinking we have arrived. Of course we will in fact attain the goal someday: when the Lord comes again and transforms our bodies to be like his glorious body.

Right next to Michael in his videos is the Lord's Prayer. Right next to his ear is the petition that our Lord has taught us to pray: Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Do you, or do you not, ever need to pray that?
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  #64  
Old 06-15-2019, 10:32 AM
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Evang.Benincasa Evang.Benincasa is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Originally Posted by Costeon View Post
I'm truly shocked. We always seem to agree. :-)

So, 1 John 1.10 teaches that only liars deny that all people have sinned . . .
So I'm not a liar since I think all people do sin. 1 John is written to the church. Anything it says here about confession applies to us. So when you sin--even if it be ever so rare--you should confess it.

Regarding my request for a personal anecdote, since you apparently think people can and do live their entire life free from sin--they perfectly love God with their heart, soul, mind, and strength and their neighbor as themselves--I am curious who these people are. I thought it would be interesting to first find out if you're one of these perfect ones. If not you, give me some examples. And how do you know they have been perfect? Their own testimony? Your observation of their life? It would seem unusual for it to be possible to live a perfect life at all times, but there be no examples. The only one without sin is the Lord Jesus Christ. He never needed to go to the throne of grace for his sin, because unlike all other human beings, he had no sin.

It makes sense that God would call us to such a lofty goal: we will keep pursuing more of God, never thinking we have arrived. Of course we will in fact attain the goal someday: when the Lord comes again and transforms our bodies to be like his glorious body.

Right next to Michael in his videos is the Lord's Prayer. Right next to his ear is the petition that our Lord has taught us to pray: Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us. Do you, or do you not, ever need to pray that?
Costeon, it looks like you lost the argument. Since you are now speaking emotionally concerning your own ecclesiastical world view. It is like the atheist who has never heard tongues as a literal known language therefore tongues are false. Perfection is maturity, even the Calvinist and Baptist who believes that it is impossible for someone to live without sinning, believes that after you come into the church you should sin less. Which always seemed as a contradiction to what they believe "you will sin everyday"
So, if you are to sin "rarely" exactly what does that look like? Why and how did you ever get there? Sin less? Sin rarely? But not sin at all is such a leap?
Especially When after 1 John 1:10 we find 1 John 3:8-9. To take the book of 1 John in the light you and Calvinists propose we end up with a contradiction in thought. We are not told to sin less, but to not sin. Because those who are still sinful are not mature, but in need of mother's milk again Hebrews 5:11-13, 1 Peter 2:1-3, 1 Corinthians 3:2. We are to enter the kingdom as little children with the mother's milk of the word, but we are not to stay children, but to grow into adults Matthew 18:3, Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:15, Luke 18:17, 1 Corinthians 14:20, Hebrews 5:13, Ephesians 4:15. Again, in 1 John we are told emphatically, he who sins is of the devil. We are also told to purify ourselves as Jesus is pure 1 John 3:3. Matthew 23:26. When Jesus' heals the blind man He warns the individual (pre Pentecost, pre epistels) to go sin NO MORE, UNLESS a WORST THING HAPPENS to you John 5:14?" Seriously??? When did that little warning from Jesus Christ get cut out of the Bible and thrown away with the Old Testament? How about Jesus setting the woman caught in the very act of adultery free? Jesus tells her to go sin no more John 8:11. Jesus didn't tell her or the former blind man, that they were to lessen their sinning but to halt it completely. The former blind man is warned that he would be hit with something worse than blindness? I guess that would be a god healthy deterrent to reconsider one's behavior? So, while you are looking for a model for your sinless mature Christian, look in the Bible. Start there, then start asking Jesus how you can personally accomplish this with His help.
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  #65  
Old 06-15-2019, 11:17 AM
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Michael The Disciple Michael The Disciple is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Costeon

No, I do not think you or me or anyone is going to be sin free. But what do you mean by "sin free"? This minute? today? a lifetime, what?
Sin free means you dont have sin in your life. This is the norm for all Christians.

Rom. 6:1-2

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

First off we must have faith that we are what the Holy Ghost says we are. Here he says we are dead to sin. Sounds different than what we normally hear right? If we are dead to sin Paul says how can we keep doing it.

That shows us right there something is wrong when a Christian sins. Its not normal.

Are Christians supposed to be FREE FROM SIN?

Romans 6:6-7

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This happens at the beginning of a Christan life. The old man is crucified, destroyed. Afterwards Paul teaches we need not sin.

Quote:
There was a thread a while back on what is the state of a believer from the moment he or she sins till repentance. In other words is the believer lost until he repents? I'm pretty sure you posted in that thread as some of the others on this thread posted as well.
Its not that one instantly loses their salvation. What he does lose is perfection toward God. If we have sin in our life we are not perfect toward him. God gives us time to repent. If the sin remains in our life God will withdraw his favor from the person. We are not given to know how long one can keep sin in their life before God chastens them. Neither how long before he no longer considers them his.

What is certain is if the sin is not overcome the ultimate result is the person does not enter the kingdom.

You quote me saying this.

Quote:
If Jesus Christ is in someone every moment HE IS SAVING THEM minute by minute by his Spirit.

Our salvation is not BASED on our obedience. But our obedience IS an essential part of its finality.
I believe I explained by Romans 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Salvation is by Jesus Christ the person. He initially forgives our sins. Then through his life......the Holy Spirit in us, he continues to save us by giving us power to overcome sin.

Romans 8:12-13

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

There will be a finality to this walk. If the Christian continues in sin he will die. This means for eternity. If he through the Spirit (Jesus Christ) mortifies or "kills" the deeds of the body he will live. That means for eternity.
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But you don't perfectly do the will of God, and neither do I. If somebody thinks he does, he has an overdeveloped sense of his own righteousness, and probably an underdeveloped sense of what sin is. Do you honestly think you perfectly fulfill Jesus's command to love your neighbor as yourself? So, if you don't perfectly do God's will, where does that leave you?
What you seem to have missed is that I teach if one repents they are perfect again. Turning from sin results in it being washed away. Gone.

Nonetheless it is Jesus himself who said only those who do the Fathers will enter his kingdom.

Matt 7:21

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus gave the example of the good Samaritan concerning loving our neighbor. The Samaritan found a man in bad shape on the road. He ministered what he could to the guy and then got him a place to stay until he was well.

The example is that we help one in need. Is this something IMPOSSIBLE to do? Minister to ones need? Help them? Give them a place to stay?

Note that the example was NOT that the good Samaritan then went door to door looking for anyone and everyone in need to minister to. No. Rather it is an example of doing what you can where you are.

If we refuse to help the needy when we can do it guess what?

Jesus said he will send us away into eternal punishment. Matt 25:41-46

Why is it in a discussion of holiness and perfection it comes down to AM I DOING IT?

Is is Gods word or not? It is Gods word regardless if I or anyone else does it. Thats why Jesus said FEW find eternal life.

If I dont do Gods will I will not enter Heaven nor will anyone else.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 06-15-2019 at 11:25 AM.
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Old 06-15-2019, 11:44 AM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa View Post
Costeon, it looks like you lost the argument. Since you are now speaking emotionally concerning your own ecclesiastical world view. It is like the atheist who has never heard tongues as a literal known language therefore tongues are false. Perfection is maturity, even the Calvinist and Baptist who believes that it is impossible for someone to live without sinning, believes that after you come into the church you should sin less. Which always seemed as a contradiction to what they believe "you will sin everyday"
So, if you are to sin "rarely" exactly what does that look like? Why and how did you ever get there? Sin less? Sin rarely? But not sin at all is such a leap?
Especially When after 1 John 1:10 we find 1 John 3:8-9. To take the book of 1 John in the light you and Calvinists propose we end up with a contradiction in thought. We are not told to sin less, but to not sin. Because those who are still sinful are not mature, but in need of mother's milk again Hebrews 5:11-13, 1 Peter 2:1-3, 1 Corinthians 3:2. We are to enter the kingdom as little children with the mother's milk of the word, but we are not to stay children, but to grow into adults Matthew 18:3, Matthew 19:14, Mark 10:15, Luke 18:17, 1 Corinthians 14:20, Hebrews 5:13, Ephesians 4:15. Again, in 1 John we are told emphatically, he who sins is of the devil. We are also told to purify ourselves as Jesus is pure 1 John 3:3. Matthew 23:26. When Jesus' heals the blind man He warns the individual (pre Pentecost, pre epistels) to go sin NO MORE, UNLESS a WORST THING HAPPENS to you John 5:14?" Seriously??? When did that little warning from Jesus Christ get cut out of the Bible and thrown away with the Old Testament? How about Jesus setting the woman caught in the very act of adultery free? Jesus tells her to go sin no more John 8:11. Jesus didn't tell her or the former blind man, that they were to lessen their sinning but to halt it completely. The former blind man is warned that he would be hit with something worse than blindness? I guess that would be a god healthy deterrent to reconsider one's behavior? So, while you are looking for a model for your sinless mature Christian, look in the Bible. Start there, then start asking Jesus how you can personally accomplish this with His help.
But you do sin. And so do I. So does Michael and Esaias. Are you not "perfect" because that is so? I would say, on the contrary, that you still are, because you obviously are seeking to grow in him and are becoming more mature each day.

I think the main issue in this thread is that we're not all operating on the same definition of what perfection is. You say, "Perfection is maturity." I would agree--but I don't think I clearly understand what exactly you mean by "maturity." Maturity, to me, does not mean sinless perfection at every moment for all of life. If I am wrong here, no one is mature. Michael in his videos seems to assert that perfection means sinless perfection--along with the terrible idea that Jesus does not love us if we fail in any way. I take it from how Esaias has responded that that is his view as well (not the Jesus doesn't love you part; he has not said that). No one has given an actual example of someone who never sins . . . ever. According to Scripture, only Jesus is entirely sinless.

I definitely agree that we are to look to the Bible for our example of what a spiritually mature believer is like. I had mentioned that the goal is sinless perfection. So, to the passages you have listed, I would say amen. We are to seek to be free from sin, and thank God, by the power of the Holy Spirit, we can live an overcoming life, that is, a life characterized by obedience to God. To me that does not, however, mean that from now until Jesus comes I will never fail in thought, word, or deed. I will never get to a place in this life where I never have to pray the prayer Jesus told us to pray, "Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors." I trust that as I grow in maturity I will not have to pray it as often. :-)

It seems to me we all are also operating on a different understanding of sin. Of course I don't think there's a good chance a Spirit-filled believer may commit adultery or murder on any given day, or commit any other "big sin." It seems at least some in this thread are focusing on the biggies; I am mostly thinking about sins of thought and attitude, things we are much more susceptible to--and anyone who has read this forum for a long enough time will surely have seen what appear to be sins of attitude.

Paul's discussion in Gal 5 about the sins of the flesh is instructive: 19 Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, 21 envy drunkenness, orgies, and things like these.

It seems many people focus on things like the sexual immorality, idolatry, drunkenness, and the orgies--the biggies--but overlook the enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, dissensions and "things like these." This is why I have asked people in this thread do they always love their neighbor as themselves.

So, maybe it would be helpful if we just as succinctly as possible state what we think a mature or perfect Christian is like.

I would say a mature Christian is one who thanks God every day that he has been justified and is counted righteous in God's sight, not for any of his works, lest there be any boasting, but because of his faith in Christ and having the righteousness of Christ imputed to his account, and then out of gratefulness for this precious gift, he seeks to actually become what God has already declared him to be: righteous. He lives a life characterized by obedience and fulfilling the will of God, but for various reasons, will at times fail in thought, word, or deed, and when he does, he prays the prayer Jesus taught us to pray for forgiveness so that he abides in Christ's love, that is, he does not allow anything to simply remain in his life that would disrupt his loving, intimate relationship with Christ.
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Old 06-15-2019, 12:10 PM
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

Costeon

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I note that you say nothing about the glorious good news that Jesus Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us and that is why we stand perfect and holy in God's sight--because of our justification--and not because we have managed to perfectly obey God's will. Again, Mike, every day are you loving your neighbor as yourself?
Imputed righteousness is God forgiving our past sins. Right then we are perfect. No sin is against us. Nothing in scripture says a Christians perfect state is retained afterwards if he has a sin in his life. Rather if he does he is counted to have soiled/stained his garment.

The false doctrine of imputed righteousness as taught by Evangelicals is God does not see OUR SINS he only sees Jesus.

Tell that to Anannias and Saphira. The man in Corinth fornicating with his Fathers wife. Jezebel in Revelation 2.

Apparently God sees our sins and charges us with them until they are repented of.
Quote:
The beautiful truth is that when we are justified we are as righteous in God's eyes as Jesus is. No sin is held against us. That's how we start this journey (and continue it). Then we seek to become in reality what he has already said we are. Yes the goal is sinless perfection, but none of us attain that in this life. Yes our lives should be characterized by obedience, but none of us will be perfectly obedient.
Does you Church teach that God does not see the saints sin?

Paul knew Christians that ALWAYS OBEYED.

Phil 2:12-13

12Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. 13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

He gives the praise to the fact God is working in them, both to will and do his good pleasure.
Quote:
You say, "If we have sin in our lives God will withdraw. This doesn’t mean we’ll be lost, at least not right away perhaps."

I'm not really sure you're being consistent here. You said Jesus doesn't love us when we are not perfect. We have to be perfect to remain in his love. You said God withdraws from us if we are not perfect. So how can we be saved if Jesus doesn't love us and God has withdrawn at those moments when we have, say, failed to love our neighbor as ourselves?
But I was just quoting the Lord Jesus when I said that, right?

John 15:9-10

9As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Obviously Jesus is putting this condition on his love. That we keep his commandments. He can and will still save one who has allowed sin in their life. How? If they turn from it and begin doing his will in that area of their life again.

Since the sin has been repented of the one who DID have sin in his life is now perfect. His robes or garment has been washed clean.

Quote:
It was disturbing to watch you with such a pleasant look on your face tell everyone Jesus doesn't love them if they have not abided in perfection, that is, sinless perfection. I thought God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. How could he do anything in love for anyone if he only loves those who are perfect? I assume you'll say that this is not what you mean, so, you need to clarify what you mean by you only abide in Jesus's love when you're perfect.
Would it have been less disturbing if I told people with a mean look and hollering at them? Preached a "hot sermon"? It sounds like you are grounded in Evangelical doctrine.

What do you see when you read John 15:9-10? Does it read different to you than for me? Who am I that I would tell someone something opposite of Jesus?

God so loved the world YES. But his love according to scripture does not include willful sin being done after one is born again.

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What weakens your presentation, in my opinion, is that you are working within this extreme dichotomy of those who say, "There’s nothing you can do to get closer to God” and we just believe and it doesn't matter how we live, and you who say you must never sin or Jesus won't love you. Those aren't the only options.
In the end there is only one option for entering Gods kingdom. Doing the will of God. I have presented my case for this truth from the many oppositions that are brought against it. True there are those who just straight out say you need do nothing to be saved.

Yet I generally find even as in your case those who claim some kind of middle ground believe the same as the OSAS.

Case in point.
Quote:
I note that you say nothing about the glorious good news that Jesus Christ's righteousness has been imputed to us and that is why we stand perfect and holy in God's sight--because of our justification--and not because we have managed to perfectly obey God's will.
You fail to understand there is a beginning to salvation or "initial salvation" then there is a walk that leads to "final salvation".

When Jesus looked at the majority in this New Tesament Church did he ONLY SEE HIS RIGHEOUSNESS?

Rev. 3:1-2

1And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead. 2Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.

Looks like Jesus saw their works as not perfect in his sight.

Quote:
Finally, without first rooting your teaching in the truth that our salvation is God's free gift of righteousness that we receive by faith, your view can't help but sound like you're ultimately saving yourself.
Compared to Evangelical error it would sound wrong. Quoting Jesus it sounds true.

Last edited by Michael The Disciple; 06-15-2019 at 12:24 PM.
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Old 06-15-2019, 01:33 PM
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

Costeon, you said “ultimately” saving yourself? That is an interesting point. What does Peter mean by the words “save yourself from this untoward generation?”
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Old 06-15-2019, 01:39 PM
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

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Costeon

I think the main issue in this thread is that we're not all operating on the same definition of what perfection is.
I will use Paul Silas, and Timothy as examples to what I mean.

1 Timothy 2:10

10Ye are witnesses, and God also, how holily and justly and unblameably we behaved ourselves among you that believe:

Paul uses himself and his friends as an example. We are to be holy, just, and blameless. Obviously they had no sin in their lives.

Anything less than this is NOT perfection.

I am speaking of "sinless" perfection.

The other side of perfection (in this life) speaks of growing up into Christ in all things. Knowing more of his power. More of his love. More of his fullness. Having personal experiences with him like . Enduring tribulation. Such things.

One can be walking free from sin and not be very deep in Jesus.

One who is baptized into Christ can walk free from sin.

Romans 6:1-4

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? 3Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? 4Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

If a car runs perfect it is NOT doing MORE than it was designed to do. It is just doing what it SHOULD be doing.

Same with us. If we have no sin in our lives we are not a GREATER CHRISTIAN.

No. We are just being A CHRISTIAN.

Luke 17:7-10

7But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat? 8And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink? 9Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not. 10So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
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Old 06-15-2019, 03:10 PM
Costeon Costeon is offline
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Re: Be Perfect Be Pure

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple View Post
Sin free means you dont have sin in your life. This is the norm for all Christians.

Rom. 6:1-2

1What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

First off we must have faith that we are what the Holy Ghost says we are. Here he says we are dead to sin. Sounds different than what we normally hear right? If we are dead to sin Paul says how can we keep doing it.

That shows us right there something is wrong when a Christian sins. Its not normal.

Are Christians supposed to be FREE FROM SIN?

Romans 6:6-7

6Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. 7For he that is dead is freed from sin.

This happens at the beginning of a Christan life. The old man is crucified, destroyed. Afterwards Paul teaches we need not sin.



Its not that one instantly loses their salvation. What he does lose is perfection toward God. If we have sin in our life we are not perfect toward him. God gives us time to repent. If the sin remains in our life God will withdraw his favor from the person. We are not given to know how long one can keep sin in their life before God chastens them. Neither how long before he no longer considers them his.

What is certain is if the sin is not overcome the ultimate result is the person does not enter the kingdom.

You quote me saying this.



I believe I explained by Romans 5:10

10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Salvation is by Jesus Christ the person. He initially forgives our sins. Then through his life......the Holy Spirit in us, he continues to save us by giving us power to overcome sin.

Romans 8:12-13

12Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

There will be a finality to this walk. If the Christian continues in sin he will die. This means for eternity. If he through the Spirit (Jesus Christ) mortifies or "kills" the deeds of the body he will live. That means for eternity.


What you seem to have missed is that I teach if one repents they are perfect again. Turning from sin results in it being washed away. Gone.

Nonetheless it is Jesus himself who said only those who do the Fathers will enter his kingdom.

Matt 7:21

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Jesus gave the example of the good Samaritan concerning loving our neighbor. The Samaritan found a man in bad shape on the road. He ministered what he could to the guy and then got him a place to stay until he was well.

The example is that we help one in need. Is this something IMPOSSIBLE to do? Minister to ones need? Help them? Give them a place to stay?

Note that the example was NOT that the good Samaritan then went door to door looking for anyone and everyone in need to minister to. No. Rather it is an example of doing what you can where you are.

If we refuse to help the needy when we can do it guess what?

Jesus said he will send us away into eternal punishment. Matt 25:41-46

Why is it in a discussion of holiness and perfection it comes down to AM I DOING IT?

Is is Gods word or not? It is Gods word regardless if I or anyone else does it. Thats why Jesus said FEW find eternal life.

If I dont do Gods will I will not enter Heaven nor will anyone else.
I think I do now understand what you mean by perfection. Thank you for clarifying. One is perfect when one is perfectly obedient, that is, sinless; one is imperfect when one imperfectly obeys. Salvation is only for those who are perfect. When on sins, one loses one's perfection, but regains it upon repenting; therefore, if one should die or be alive when the Lord returns and be in the state of imperfection, he will be sent to hell.

It won't really help for me to go line by line and show you how I disagree with your interpretation of the Scripture. I won't change your mind, and you won't change mind. So, my goal now is just to urge you to remove all inconsistencies from your position.

You say: "Its not that one instantly loses their salvation. What he does lose is perfection toward God." You have repeatedly asserted that one must be perfect to be saved. So, you cannot then say that there are any times of when someone is imperfect but still saved. You are either perfect and saved or imperfect and lost. Those are the only alternatives for your view.

I will continue to disagree with your position, but I will respect your consistency if you just say, "Yes, a person is lost the moment he sins and is imperfect and remains lost till he repents and is perfect again, because only the perfect will enter the kingdom of God."

You added: "If we have sin in our life we are not perfect toward him. God gives us time to repent. If the sin remains in our life God will withdraw his favor from the person. We are not given to know how long one can keep sin in their life before God chastens them. Neither how long before he no longer considers them his."

This idea could work with my view but not yours.

So here are the implications of your view:

- Jesus doesn't love you when you sin and are imperfect. (I'm not sure what the alternative is. Does he hate you? Is he indifferent toward you?) He loves you again when you repent. His love is, therefore, entirely dependent on your behavior. He's worse than a human father who doesn't cease loving his children even though they may do something displeasing to him.

- You have a works-based salvation. As I mentioned in a previous post: "If our salvation is dependent on my moment by moment obedience--my perfection--then I am in effect saving myself. If I lose my justified status the instant I have failed in any way, then my justification is based on me not on Christ's grace."

These are, in my opinion, unbiblical implications and so your interpretation of passages that lead to them must be incorrect.
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